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[Sarf London Alty]

We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.

Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.

The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.

Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.

Do not disagree if a genuine cost / benefit analysis proves to be positive....otherwise, why should Community Tax payers support private sports clubs ?

Who said the Council fund it? They just need to show some willing to make it happen. They have been the core issue with every attempt that has been made by Sale to both stay (Heywood Road development) and to come back (Fletcher Moss Proposal being the most recent)

The idea behind it being a dual-team venue is how it can be funded... There are Billionaire owners at both teams at this point.

We build a 15,000 seat stadium with two on-site training facilities a la Carrington and Edgerton for both teams. They are available for the community each evening and for schools on schedule in the day.

We've no chance of staying at Moss Lane, we had issues getting locals on board for improved floodlights that reduced the light leak onto their houses. Does anyone honestly think they will stand for major stand builds on their doorstep?

To the out-of-town argument, York moved out of town and gained 1500 new fans...

Stadium that holds 15k is way more than likely needed......Morecambe, Accrington, Salford, Harrogate and Barrow all struggle to reach 3k in L2. In L1, Fleetwood, Port Vale and Burton struggle to get 4k.......Do enough improvements to keep ML safe and legal, improve facilities and worry about a new stadium if we looking like advancing to the Championship.

As for getting Trafford on-board, then no idea how we do this. I have complained about the pavements outside the old snooker centre pounding water and decomposed leaves, forcing pedestrians to step into the road on match days, only to be told it still meets their safety criteria.... .....when I reminded them that I was talking to the same TMBC who closed our ground due to some crumbly concrete on the terraces....they told me that money was in short supply and that they need to prioritise their spending across many competing issues.....if their dealings with the club are as helpful as their dealings with community tax payers, then we have no chance

Agreed 15k is far too much but with respect to all of the clubs listed above (with the exception of Port Vale) I’d argue we are a bigger club, better located then nearly all of them & with a higher ceiling. We’ve basically added 1000 to our average home gate in the last 3 years by dint of being a lower mid table conference team. Getting an average of 2,500 in the next few years should be achievable. 3k in the EFL with some large away supports factored in wouldn’t be that hard.

[Amsterdam Alty]

The number might be a little large, but if you notice my suggestion is for a ground share as being part of why Trafford might get on board. While Sale is currently only getting 7k averages they will want to be able to hold more for big games and tbh if you moved them out of a Rugby League town we'd possibly see an increase in in their crowds.

Also, the move from National League to League 1 is short when the team is set up right. Wrexham and/or Notts will go up at the first attempt. Chesterfield will do the same next year, what's to say we won't as well if we go up? If the stars aligned we could be knocking on the championship before we even get past the plans stage.

End of the day though it's time to decide how serious the board is about actually being a league club. Moss Lane is a dinosaur of a ground with nowhere good to sit and watch the game, and very few decent places to stand either. We might be griping about the pitch but half the mainstand miss play in a quarter of the pitch (more if they sit close to the "windows", the standing home fans don't know from week to week where will be available to stand to them. Not to mention away fans and how much money we throw away because we can't host them for ale sales. We could test the water with planning permission for the away end, see it rejected then move on to more hospitable locations... or we can still be here in 10 years wondering why the pop side is only open to halfway because Trafford has found more decrepit bits, and we'll still be wondering why the f**k water comes from beneath us on a moss land.

[jhcorbett]

Didn't the board share their (approx) 10 year plan for redeveloping Moss Lane a couple of years back?

Where has this stuff about relocating come from? Are people putting 2+2 together and coming out with 15.0?

[Bob]

I don't get why replacing stands on an existing football stadium that's been in place for over 100 years and is an increasingly important part of the community is going to have all this nimbyism and planning issues when the alternatives mentioned such as Dunham, Broadheath, Long Hey etc. are surely going to have many different oppositions and huge associated costs anyway?

If someone can point out a brownfield site within walking distance of the town centre which won't need new roads building or any residents to moan about the traffic or noise then please let me know.

[cheshire cat]

I think the relocation thing is partly down to the unplayable surface and partly down to the need to move in to to 21st century.

Recent trips to Kidderminster and Solihull show just how far behind the curve we are. Any expansion at Moss Lane would involve eliminating the parking area behind the pop side which in itself would bring new problems.

As far as ground sharing goes there used to be a requirement for premier rugby teams to have a 12,000 capacity. In the light of Worcester and Wasps going belly up I'm not sure that will still apply but certainly Sale would be looking at a venue that could hold 10 - 12K as a minimum.

I think if we had a better stand / stadium we would get bigger crowds. They're never going to be massive because of Old Trafford / Ethiad but no reason why we can't be looking at 5,000 - 6,000. 5000 in the current setup is not a good customer experience imho.

[Mick]

The number might be a little large, but if you notice my suggestion is for a ground share as being part of why Trafford might get on board. While Sale is currently only getting 7k averages they will want to be able to hold more for big games and tbh if you moved them out of a Rugby League town we'd possibly see an increase in in their crowds.

Also, the move from National League to League 1 is short when the team is set up right. Wrexham and/or Notts will go up at the first attempt. Chesterfield will do the same next year, what's to say we won't as well if we go up? If the stars aligned we could be knocking on the championship before we even get past the plans stage.

End of the day though it's time to decide how serious the board is about actually being a league club. Moss Lane is a dinosaur of a ground with nowhere good to sit and watch the game, and very few decent places to stand either. We might be griping about the pitch but half the mainstand miss play in a quarter of the pitch (more if they sit close to the "windows", the standing home fans don't know from week to week where will be available to stand to them. Not to mention away fans and how much money we throw away because we can't host them for ale sales. We could test the water with planning permission for the away end, see it rejected then move on to more hospitable locations... or we can still be here in 10 years wondering why the pop side is only open to halfway because Trafford has found more decrepit bits, and we'll still be wondering why the f**k water comes from beneath us on a moss land.

Some good points. I guess there are many factors to consider in this new ground / refurb debate. Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.

[Alty Dave]

I'm sure the club is doing the due diligence and looking at renovating and a new ground. Interesting to see what the upshot will be.

In the meantime, the pitch either via warranty or paid for remedial work needs the drainage improving. It can be done, I remember when PSV had the drainage upgraded for the Olympic training venue. The grass pitch was always playable even in a monsoon. The ones next to it reminded us of the difference's as they swam in surface water.. Not sure how much it cost, but shows it can be done.

[HashtagAlty]

Didn't the board share their (approx) 10 year plan for redeveloping Moss Lane a couple of years back?

Where has this stuff about relocating come from? Are people putting 2+2 together and coming out with 15.0?

Because they couldn't get a fan zone done from those plans.

[Wilmslow Alty]

Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.

I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that, although we don't own the freehold, we do own the lease on the land. Is this not similar to owning a leasehold house or flat? i.e. You pay an annual ground rent to the freeholder (TMBC) but you can still freely sell the leasehold property for only slightly less than it would fetch as a freehold.

[Amsterdam Alty]

Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.

I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that, although we don't own the freehold, we do own the lease on the land. Is this not similar to owning a leasehold house or flat? i.e. You pay an annual ground rent to the freeholder (TMBC) but you can still freely sell the leasehold property for only slightly less than it would fetch as a freehold.

There is a sporting covenant on it, so I think it renders the land nearly useless for resale.

[Wilmslow Alty]

There is a sporting covenant on it, so I think it renders the land nearly useless for resale.

Ah - that's a bit of a bugger.

[cheshire cat]

Covenants can be removed if the beneficiaries are in agreement.

Not sure who the benefiting parties are in this case but I would have thought all the neighbours would be glad to get rid of the crowds and the floodlights.

[distancetraveller]

Perhaps an option could be to put the main stand where the pop side is now, then the moss lane. Side wouldn’t need such a high replacement stands compared with the present one.

[Mick]

Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.

I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that, although we don't own the freehold, we do own the lease on the land. Is this not similar to owning a leasehold house or flat? i.e. You pay an annual ground rent to the freeholder (TMBC) but you can still freely sell the leasehold property for only slightly less than it would fetch as a freehold.

There is a sporting covenant on it, so I think it renders the land nearly useless for resale.

With dwellings I think you are correct.....leasehold properties change hands for market value and the new owner continues to pay the freeholder.

I would say with a football ground things are different. For example who wants to buy a lease along with a football ground to then continue to use it as a football ground...the number of potential buyers has to be severely limited.

The lease is not worthless though, because let us say TMBC wanted to sell the land to a property developer (yet more apartments and community tax to waste), then they would need to negotiate the purchase of the lease. I think this is what happened when the Chequers car park was sold for housing.

Sporting covenents these days seem to be no longer a cast in stone guarantee that the land can only be used for sport and more an inconvenient obstacle that the landowner can eventually overcome. I know of an athletics ground with a covenant that was sold for housing (despite local protest groups) and 'some' of the profits were used to help fund the building of a nearby leisure centre.

[robininstockport]

Moving from Moss Lane would be the last option in my eyes.

I would have thought raising the pitch 1m/sorting drainage out would be a lot less expense than moving.