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[Bath Alty]

Colwyn Bay say the rules are explicit:

Rule 19: PROVISIONS CONCERNING MATCH OFFICIALS

(a)(i) “Match officials shall be appointed by The Association. Neither past nor present members of either of the contending clubs shall be eligible. (iii) “In the event of any match officials being incapacitated, the two clubs shall agree to a substitute, providing one is available who is currently eligible to officiate in a league equivalent to the lowest level of football in which either of the two teams participate.”

but does that mean that the one substitute has to be eligible to officiate etc or that providing one official is eligible the substitute can be anyone at all?

Given the level of football in which Mr Sinclair participates.....

[Mallorca Alty]

On that wording. I think only officials that usually officiate in the Conference North would be only able to replace an injured referee. The referees at Conference North level are usually Level 2 or 3 refs and the assistants are usually Level 4. So that would rule me out because I am a Level 5 referee. I think Andy Coop is a level 4 referee and if he was there he could have stepped in as a replacement. So it looks like by the letter of the law it is going to be a replay starting at 0-0.

[View from the middle]

On that wording. I think only officials that usually officiate in the Conference North would be only able to replace an injured referee. The referees at Conference North level are usually Level 2 or 3 refs and the assistants are usually Level 4. So that would rule me out because I am a Level 5 referee. I think Andy Coop is a level 4 referee and if he was there he could have stepped in as a replacement. So it looks like by the letter of the law it is going to be a replay starting at 0-0.

That was the case up until three seasons ago when the FA introduced a new level of refereeing. Conference North referees are now a level 2b and the assistants are level 3. You are right I am a level 4 referee so going off rule 19 from the Colwyn Bay website I would not have been able to step in had I been there on Saturday, I was in fact on a Trophy game myself. However I have been on a game when I was injured during the warm up and an announcement was made for a qualified referee to come forward to run the line in my place. The only available person was a level 7 referee who ran the line for the full game. This was reported to the FA and I didn't hear of any comeback from it. I don't know when the rule from the Colwyn Bay website came into being or if indeed it only applies to FA Cup, Trophy or Vase games.

It is very rare that officials get injured during games and if it does occur then it is always hoped that there is a fourth official appointed to the game or even an assessor that could step in. In reference to the rule, I can't think why there would be 'one (official) available who is currently eligible to officiate in a league equivalent to the lowest level of football in which either of the two teams participate' because they would surely be officiating on a game themselves, even more so on a Saturday. I haven't had a free Saturday this season due to refereeing commitments. In an ideal world, every game of football from Premier League to Sunday League would have four officials appointed to it but the truth is there isn't enough match officials. The reality is that there isn't enough officials to even appoint a fourth official to Conference North games.

It would be my suggestion that the club send one of the back room staff or maybe a couple of fans that regularly attend games home and away on the basic refereeing course should this situation ever happen again. When I do manage to attend home games and read posts on here I hear and see plenty of comments from people about the officials. I'm not giving any indication of if they are positive or negative or a mixture of the two but it will be interesting to see if someone does decide to take the basic refereeing course to negate this problem should it ever occur again.

[York Alty]

On that wording. I think only officials that usually officiate in the Conference North would be only able to replace an injured referee. The referees at Conference North level are usually Level 2 or 3 refs and the assistants are usually Level 4. So that would rule me out because I am a Level 5 referee. I think Andy Coop is a level 4 referee and if he was there he could have stepped in as a replacement. So it looks like by the letter of the law it is going to be a replay starting at 0-0.

That was the case up until three seasons ago when the FA introduced a new level of refereeing. Conference North referees are now a level 2b and the assistants are level 3. You are right I am a level 4 referee so going off rule 19 from the Colwyn Bay website I would not have been able to step in had I been there on Saturday, I was in fact on a Trophy game myself. However I have been on a game when I was injured during the warm up and an announcement was made for a qualified referee to come forward to run the line in my place. The only available person was a level 7 referee who ran the line for the full game. This was reported to the FA and I didn't hear of any comeback from it. I don't know when the rule from the Colwyn Bay website came into being or if indeed it only applies to FA Cup, Trophy or Vase games.

It is very rare that officials get injured during games and if it does occur then it is always hoped that there is a fourth official appointed to the game or even an assessor that could step in. In reference to the rule, I can't think why there would be 'one (official) available who is currently eligible to officiate in a league equivalent to the lowest level of football in which either of the two teams participate' because they would surely be officiating on a game themselves, even more so on a Saturday. I haven't had a free Saturday this season due to refereeing commitments. In an ideal world, every game of football from Premier League to Sunday League would have four officials appointed to it but the truth is there isn't enough match officials. The reality is that there isn't enough officials to even appoint a fourth official to Conference North games.

It would be my suggestion that the club send one of the back room staff or maybe a couple of fans that regularly attend games home and away on the basic refereeing course should this situation ever happen again. When I do manage to attend home games and read posts on here I hear and see plenty of comments from people about the officials. I'm not giving any indication of if they are positive or negative or a mixture of the two but it will be interesting to see if someone does decide to take the basic refereeing course to negate this problem should it ever occur again.

It will happen again.  Statistically it may be rare, but it will happen again.  I think the FA need to clarify the roles, rights and responsibilities ni agreeing the replacement official.  Football has made an arse of itself over this nonsense (helped by Mr F. Sinclair) so needs to get some sort of positive out of it.  Doing nothing is the FAs specialism but isn't good enough.

[AltyTunnelSteward]

I suspect in all honesty that the situation was not helped excessively by having FA Vase ties also being played on Saturday.

This will clearly require a fairly significant number of officials for those Vase Games.

Again, at the risk of being seen as apologist, the FA are somewhat caught twixt Rock and Hard Place on this as they are contractually obligated to play the Finals at the "New Wembley" almost in perpetuity on dates specified by the Company running Wembley so need to play early rounds of the Trophy and Vase not only early in the season but also concurrently in some cases (like last weekend)

In so far as the playing every pseudo important game for the next four millenia at Wembley, that is a different matter for a different time and place when I have taken my medication

[arnald]

I suspect in all honesty that the situation was not helped excessively by having FA Vase ties also being played on Saturday.

This will clearly require a fairly significant number of officials for those Vase Games.

Again, at the risk of being seen as apologist, the FA are somewhat caught twixt Rock and Hard Place on this as they are contractually obligated to play the Finals at the "New Wembley" almost in perpetuity on dates specified by the Company running Wembley so need to play early rounds of the Trophy and Vase not only early in the season but also concurrently in some cases (like last weekend)

In so far as the playing every pseudo important game for the next four millenia at Wembley, that is a different matter for a different time and place when I have taken my medication

in a nut shell alty will win the fa trophy

[York Alty]

I suspect in all honesty that the situation was not helped excessively by having FA Vase ties also being played on Saturday.

This will clearly require a fairly significant number of officials for those Vase Games.

Again, at the risk of being seen as apologist, the FA are somewhat caught twixt Rock and Hard Place on this as they are contractually obligated to play the Finals at the "New Wembley" almost in perpetuity on dates specified by the Company running Wembley so need to play early rounds of the Trophy and Vase not only early in the season but also concurrently in some cases (like last weekend)

In so far as the playing every pseudo important game for the next four millenia at Wembley, that is a different matter for a different time and place when I have taken my medication

Accepting your points ATS that doesn't stop the FA from reviewing the technical details of the process, the policies and the procedures in these circumstances.  I believe strongly that the ref should make the final decision about who takes over, failing her/him one of the assistant refs.  It should not be left to the biased decision making of one club to nullify 83 minutes (or more) of footy. Making those changes won't need any more officials, it needs administrators and somebody who has the interests of fans, sport, and the image of the game at heart.

[AltyTunnelSteward]

I cannot but agree with you Mr York.

The whole issue does indeed, IMHO, need to be reviewed and a more sensible version of this particular competition rule drafted.

However, playing devils (or FA Appointments Officers) advocate for a minute can you imagine the outfall were a game to be decided as a result of the person sanctioned by the Referee (original or replacement) either not doing as instructed by the "new" referee or the "new" referee overruling them?

Officials get enough grief as it is, a significant part arguably understandably, without opening the door for more.

A scenario if I might....The Referee goes down injured and as there is no alternative I am pressed into service. Referees instructions to me (despite me being qualified) are merely to signal ball in or out of play. He will adjudicate fouls and offsides
Following these instructions I do not raise my flag for an offside which I know to be offside and am better placed than the Referee to judge. What would the response to me (and the other officials) be if that results in the winning goal?

Alternatively I do raise my flag, everyone stops on seeing the flag and I am then overruled (correctly) by the Referee.

What i am trying to say is that it is a bit more complex a problem to resolve than it first appears

[York Alty]

I cannot but agree with you Mr York.

The whole issue does indeed, IMHO, need to be reviewed and a more sensible version of this particular competition rule drafted.

However, playing devils (or FA Appointments Officers) advocate for a minute can you imagine the outfall were a game to be decided as a result of the person sanctioned by the Referee (original or replacement) either not doing as instructed by the "new" referee or the "new" referee overruling them?

Officials get enough grief as it is, a significant part arguably understandably, without opening the door for more.

A scenario if I might....The Referee goes down injured and as there is no alternative I am pressed into service. Referees instructions to me (despite me being qualified) are merely to signal ball in or out of play. He will adjudicate fouls and offsides
Following these instructions I do not raise my flag for an offside which I know to be offside and am better placed than the Referee to judge. What would the response to me (and the other officials) be if that results in the winning goal?

Alternatively I do raise my flag, everyone stops on seeing the flag and I am then overruled (correctly) by the Referee.

What i am trying to say is that it is a bit more complex a problem to resolve than it first appears

In the circumstances you describe - and they will happen sooner or later- the game has been played to a conclusion under the control of the referee. The referee is impartial, and although it's not perfect it's the best solution available and avoids the unsporting farce that we are shamefully witnessing tonight. Life isn't perfect, nor is it fair. We just do the best we can.