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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: MarpleAlty on April 13, 2021, 05:43:49 PM
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Can I just say thanks to the club for putting on the insightful webinar - which included our two Muslim players, Yusifu Ceesay and Yoan Zouma - during the half-time break on Saturday. It was probably the most enjoyable part of the stream ::)
Once again it makes me proud to call myself an Altrincham fan to see that we're such an inclusive, forward thinking club.
Ramadan Mubarak to Yusifu and Yoan.
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
That's great. So long as we maintain that approach, and that is the hard part.
I watched the you tube video, having spent a number of Ramadans in parts of the Islamic world it interests me, as does Jainism, Zoroastrianism and Sikhism. No complaints from me if we have the same treatment should we have a player of those or any faith. I don't believe any of them! Most are science denying nonsense.
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
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That last statement isn’t exactly true though is it? I don’t recall an Easter video explaining why Christian players or fans may have struggled with playing a match on Good Friday (if it weren’t for the tragic circumstances this year). We have treated the Muslim faith differently, not complaining just pointing out that equality is impossible to achieve. It’s impossible to please everyone though as we would have proved if our Muslim players had been here for the match in the rainbow kit. The no discrimination badges were one thing but we couldn’t or shouldn’t have asked those whose faith forbids homosexuality to play ina shirt that takes pride in it.
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That's the trouble when you start bringing politics into it. There's no positive discrimination, just discrimination, some say. Still, there is this to be said. I remember reading an article some years ago about how young "Asian" players were not being given a chance by professional football clubs because apparently the hierarchy at such organisations had an attitude that "Asians" did not make good footballers, and feeling shocked that such attitudes persisted in football in the 21st century. It featured a player who was setting all sorts of records in an amateur league but was not getting a look in when he went for trials. My bottom line is that everyone from whatever background should be given a fair chance, so anything that can help to give such players the chance they deserve, as long as it is respectful to everyone, must be a good thing.
In the spirit of increasing understanding, I should add that I will never go to a match at 3pm on Good Friday, this being the holiest hour in the Christian year (and I'm sure our vibrant community of Kerala Catholics would agree), which obviously makes it less worth while for me to get a season ticket whilst leagues and clubs persist in this practice. (I'm obviously speaking as a Christian, for those who don't know...)
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Some website this.
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That's the trouble when you start bringing politics into it. There's no positive discrimination, just discrimination, some say. Still, there is this to be said. I remember reading an article some years ago about how young "Asian" players were not being given a chance by professional football clubs because apparently the hierarchy at such organisations had an attitude that "Asians" did not make good footballers, and feeling shocked that such attitudes persisted in football in the 21st century. It featured a player who was setting all sorts of records in an amateur league but was not getting a look in when he went for trials. My bottom line is that everyone from whatever background should be given a fair chance, so anything that can help to give such players the chance they deserve, as long as it is respectful to everyone, must be a good thing.
In the spirit of increasing understanding, I should add that I will never go to a match at 3pm on Good Friday, this being the holiest hour in the Christian year (and I'm sure our vibrant community of Kerala Catholics would agree), which obviously makes it less worth while for me to get a season ticket whilst leagues and clubs persist in this practice. (I'm obviously speaking as a Christian, for those who don't know...)
Why have you put quotation marks around the word Asian? Do you not believe in Asia?
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Wow.
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
.
That last statement isn’t exactly true though is it? I don’t recall an Easter video explaining why Christian players or fans may have struggled with playing a match on Good Friday (if it weren’t for the tragic circumstances this year). We have treated the Muslim faith differently, not complaining just pointing out that equality is impossible to achieve. It’s impossible to please everyone though as we would have proved if our Muslim players had been here for the match in the rainbow kit. The no discrimination badges were one thing but we couldn’t or shouldn’t have asked those whose faith forbids homosexuality to play ina shirt that takes pride in it.
One could say a few things in reply to this but, just on a point of fact, Yusifu Ceesay was a used substitute in the rainbow shirts game.
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Which makes me wonder how he felt about being put in the position of having to chose between the position his faith takes and that publicly espoused by his employer. Putting people in that position is the very opposite of being inclusive
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Which makes me wonder how he felt about being put in the position of having to chose between the position his faith takes and that publicly espoused by his employer.
Without wishing to be provocative, did you ever wonder how Christian players felt about playing on Good Friday? Wasn't there a Scottish (I think) player who had it in his contract that he wouldn't be called upon to play on a Sunday?
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Absolutely! As a Christian myself I thought a lot about how I would have reacted had I been in the playing squad for the rainbow kit match too. For what it’s worth my conclusion was that I would have gladly worn the anti-discrimination logo the shirt featured but could not in good conscience have worn a pride shirt and would have had to make myself unavailable for the game (unless I was I was in goal!)
Good Friday is an interesting one. There is nothing biblical that says good Friday should have any particular rememberence or restrictions around it but it is clearly an important day. Many churches hold services in the morning so I think I could get comfortable with going to church in the morning and playing in the afternoon but it’s a personal decision I think.
As for playing on a Sunday “the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath” (Mark 2:27) so if I observe a different day of the week as my day of rest, kept holy for God then that’s ok. After all our vicar has Tuesdays as his day off because clearly he has to work sundays!
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Once religion is brought to the fore inevitably there are many potential issues..
Would a Methodist be forced to wear a Bet365 logo?
I am sure there was a lad who partially objected to playing in a Newcastle top with Wonga loans on it.
The club have stepped into an intensely personal area, and have set a very high standard to maintain. Good luck navigating through that without excluding people.
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
Yes there are 2 full Sith in my house plus 2 Padawan jedi learners in my house. Also one of the Sith for her job title and description on of which " Supreme over lord " and "Ruler of all her domain"
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
.
That last statement isn’t exactly true though is it? I don’t recall an Easter video explaining why Christian players or fans may have struggled with playing a match on Good Friday (if it weren’t for the tragic circumstances this year). We have treated the Muslim faith differently, not complaining just pointing out that equality is impossible to achieve. It’s impossible to please everyone though as we would have proved if our Muslim players had been here for the match in the rainbow kit. The no discrimination badges were one thing but we couldn’t or shouldn’t have asked those whose faith forbids homosexuality to play ina shirt that takes pride in it.
I believe that as it was a diversity day we had our good doctor friend present to show that attitudes in religions are equally modern.
The purpose of the video wasn't really about the faith of Ramadan, more exploring the nutrition and impact of fasting whilst continuing to perform at an elite level.
The comparison for Easter would be for a Catholic player avoiding meat the day of, day before a game.
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The purpose of the video wasn't really about the faith of Ramadan, more exploring the nutrition and impact of fasting whilst continuing to perform at an elite level.
That was my take on the talk too. It was indeed the highlight of the stream.
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Absolutely! As a Christian myself I thought a lot about how I would have reacted had I been in the playing squad for the rainbow kit match too.
What you mean is ‘as a Christian who has certain beliefs’. Let’s just say that not all Christians, and indeed not all Muslims, hold such beliefs.
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Watching Yoan trying to balance his phone on the steering wheel of his car whilst on a Teams Call - and failing several times - was probably more entertaining than the first half of the match. Certainly made me laugh.
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Which makes me wonder how he felt about being put in the position of having to chose between the position his faith takes and that publicly espoused by his employer.
Without wishing to be provocative, did you ever wonder how Christian players felt about playing on Good Friday? Wasn't there a Scottish (I think) player who had it in his contract that he wouldn't be called upon to play on a Sunday?
I don't know about the Scottish player (although I do remember the Welsh manager of Cefn Druids, of all clubs, who wouldn't manage on a Sunday), but Symon Burgher of Bromsgrove Rovers in the nineties wouldn't play on a Saturday as he was a Seventh Day Adventist, and so played at a lower level than his ability merited.
Back in the day, although Sunday football was banned, there were regular games on Christmas Day (unless it was a Sunday) and Good Friday, both usually followed by a game the following day, so Christian players have not traditionally had a problem playing on those days.
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Absolutely! As a Christian myself I thought a lot about how I would have reacted had I been in the playing squad for the rainbow kit match too.
What you mean is ‘as a Christian who has certain beliefs’. Let’s just say that not all Christians, and indeed not all Muslims, hold such beliefs.
I don’t think this is the place for that debate but happy to carry on off line, for now let’s just settle on the position of the Church of England as a reasonable proxy for “Christian belief” which is, I believe in line with the view I expressed above
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Absolutely! As a Christian myself I thought a lot about how I would have reacted had I been in the playing squad for the rainbow kit match too.
What you mean is ‘as a Christian who has certain beliefs’. Let’s just say that not all Christians, and indeed not all Muslims, hold such beliefs.
I was going to write exactly the same thing myself. I was brought up a Catholic, but am a confirmed atheist. There are many from many different religions who do not hold any truck with some of the teachings of their faith.
I would have thought love thy fellow man (whatever their colour, creed or sexuality) should be a basic tenet of any religion, but that, sadly, rarely appears to be the case.
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Absolutely! As a Christian myself I thought a lot about how I would have reacted had I been in the playing squad for the rainbow kit match too.
What you mean is ‘as a Christian who has certain beliefs’. Let’s just say that not all Christians, and indeed not all Muslims, hold such beliefs.
I don’t think this is the place for that debate but happy to carry on off line, for now let’s just settle on the position of the Church of England as a reasonable proxy for “Christian belief” which is, I believe in line with the view I expressed above
And yet the Church of England has recognised and allowed same sex civil partnerships amongst the clergy since 2005 and there are many openly gay members of the clergy.
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I think to say you hold a particular faith “having some truck” with its teaching is a requirement, otherwise you are giving yourself a label that doesn’t actually apply to you. Picking and choosing bits of a faith means you have invented your own religion and if you want to do that then crack on but it seems somewhat illogical and arrogant to me to think you know better than the faith you profess to follow.
By the way on the implication of your second point holding the belief that homosexuality is a sin does not mean you cannot or do not love your fellow man (in the brotherly sense clearly) anymore than believing sex outside marriage is a sin means you cannot or do not love your cohabiting neighbours. If we only loved the sinless we would’nt love anyone!
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The Church of England does not bless or carry out same sex marriages. As above they do not only allow the sinless to be vicars!
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
Yes. Ridiculous that you should have to point this out. I found it an interesting piece tbh.
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Once religion is brought to the fore inevitably there are many potential issues..
Would a Methodist be forced to wear a Bet365 logo?
I am sure there was a lad who partially objected to playing in a Newcastle top with Wonga loans on it.
The club have stepped into an intensely personal area, and have set a very high standard to maintain. Good luck navigating through that without excluding people.
The point you make is valid, although as far as clubs promoting betting companies on there shirts, my own morals would guide me on the wrongness of that.
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
.
That last statement isn’t exactly true though is it? I don’t recall an Easter video explaining why Christian players or fans may have struggled with playing a match on Good Friday (if it weren’t for the tragic circumstances this year). We have treated the Muslim faith differently, not complaining just pointing out that equality is impossible to achieve. It’s impossible to please everyone though as we would have proved if our Muslim players had been here for the match in the rainbow kit. The no discrimination badges were one thing but we couldn’t or shouldn’t have asked those whose faith forbids homosexuality to play ina shirt that takes pride in it.
I believe that as it was a diversity day we had our good doctor friend present to show that attitudes in religions are equally modern.
The purpose of the video wasn't really about the faith of Ramadan, more exploring the nutrition and impact of fasting whilst continuing to perform at an elite level.
The comparison for Easter would be for a Catholic player avoiding meat the day of, day before a game.
To be clear, Catholicism is not a religion, Christianity is. If you are making a comparison, it should be done on an equal footing.
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I have no time for religion, if people want to believe something that's fine. What does concern me is the club should treat all faiths equally. Anybody put Jedi on the census form?
*SIGH* once again, for the people at the back...
Just because we're talking about ONE religion in this specific case (as it's Ramadan, no less) - doesn't mean we don't care as much about other religions. At no point has the club suggested otherwise, nor treated any faith differently.
.
That last statement isn’t exactly true though is it? I don’t recall an Easter video explaining why Christian players or fans may have struggled with playing a match on Good Friday (if it weren’t for the tragic circumstances this year). We have treated the Muslim faith differently, not complaining just pointing out that equality is impossible to achieve. It’s impossible to please everyone though as we would have proved if our Muslim players had been here for the match in the rainbow kit. The no discrimination badges were one thing but we couldn’t or shouldn’t have asked those whose faith forbids homosexuality to play ina shirt that takes pride in it.
You're just making yourself look silly here - the books of both Christianity and Islam supposedly have 'form' in this regard, however you have chosen to isolate one and not the other for some reason.
As the majority of us know less about Islam than Christianity, I found the piece interesting, and took it as such. The local area has a strong Muslim community - should we not be encouraging them through the turnstiles?
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Got to hope we don't sign a Scientologist, that is one bat loopy fruit banjo set of religious beliefs.
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The Church of England does not bless or carry out same sex marriages. As above they do not only allow the sinless to be vicars!
So, in one place you state, about those with Christian beliefs, 'those whose faith forbids homosexuality' and yet your faith permits homosexual vicars (and of course parishioners). Does that not make the Church of England contradictory in it's beliefs? It's not like a homosexual vicar is going to repent their 'sins' as they can not change who they are. If they are in a civil partnership, then they are surely ignoring one of the tenets of their faith? It's a total fudge by the Church of England and a ridiculous state of affairs.
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The Church of England does not bless or carry out same sex marriages. As above they do not only allow the sinless to be vicars!
So, in one place you state, about those with Christian beliefs, 'those whose faith forbids homosexuality' and yet your faith permits homosexual vicars (and of course parishioners). Does that not make the Church of England contradictory in it's beliefs? It's not like a homosexual vicar is going to repent their 'sins' as they can not change who they are. If they are in a civil partnership, then they are surely ignoring one of the tenets of their faith? It's a total fudge by the Church of England and a ridiculous state of affairs.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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The Church of England does not bless or carry out same sex marriages. As above they do not only allow the sinless to be vicars!
So, in one place you state, about those with Christian beliefs, 'those whose faith forbids homosexuality' and yet your faith permits homosexual vicars (and of course parishioners). Does that not make the Church of England contradictory in it's beliefs? It's not like a homosexual vicar is going to repent their 'sins' as they can not change who they are. If they are in a civil partnership, then they are surely ignoring one of the tenets of their faith? It's a total fudge by the Church of England and a ridiculous state of affairs.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
;D It is all very Fr Ted
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The Church of England does not bless or carry out same sex marriages. As above they do not only allow the sinless to be vicars!
So, in one place you state, about those with Christian beliefs, 'those whose faith forbids homosexuality' and yet your faith permits homosexual vicars (and of course parishioners). Does that not make the Church of England contradictory in it's beliefs? It's not like a homosexual vicar is going to repent their 'sins' as they can not change who they are. If they are in a civil partnership, then they are surely ignoring one of the tenets of their faith? It's a total fudge by the Church of England and a ridiculous state of affairs.
I may be wrong, but I believe it is practising homosexuals they don't allow.
I don't know if that means they allow the ones who get it right!
Personally, I cannot understand anyone who could not celebrate love between 2 (or more) consensual adults, but it is right to respect their views.
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That's the trouble when you start bringing politics into it. There's no positive discrimination, just discrimination, some say. Still, there is this to be said. I remember reading an article some years ago about how young "Asian" players were not being given a chance by professional football clubs because apparently the hierarchy at such organisations had an attitude that "Asians" did not make good footballers, and feeling shocked that such attitudes persisted in football in the 21st century. It featured a player who was setting all sorts of records in an amateur league but was not getting a look in when he went for trials. My bottom line is that everyone from whatever background should be given a fair chance, so anything that can help to give such players the chance they deserve, as long as it is respectful to everyone, must be a good thing.
In the spirit of increasing understanding, I should add that I will never go to a match at 3pm on Good Friday, this being the holiest hour in the Christian year (and I'm sure our vibrant community of Kerala Catholics would agree), which obviously makes it less worth while for me to get a season ticket whilst leagues and clubs persist in this practice. (I'm obviously speaking as a Christian, for those who don't know...)
Why have you put quotation marks around the word Asian? Do you not believe in Asia?
Asia is quite a big place. When people say Asia in this country, they often mean mainly or entirely the Indian subcontinent - particularly, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. My reading of it anyway.
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Which makes me wonder how he felt about being put in the position of having to chose between the position his faith takes and that publicly espoused by his employer.
Without wishing to be provocative, did you ever wonder how Christian players felt about playing on Good Friday? Wasn't there a Scottish (I think) player who had it in his contract that he wouldn't be called upon to play on a Sunday?
Wasn't that Roger Bannister? A good film about him.
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Which makes me wonder how he felt about being put in the position of having to chose between the position his faith takes and that publicly espoused by his employer.
Without wishing to be provocative, did you ever wonder how Christian players felt about playing on Good Friday? Wasn't there a Scottish (I think) player who had it in his contract that he wouldn't be called upon to play on a Sunday?
Wasn't that Roger Bannister? A good film about him. And I seem to remember Crisp was in the same team as "Burgher"! (I won't get into Cannock and Shugborugh :) )