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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: bumble on September 25, 2016, 09:24:00 AM
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Yesterday Pete Hughes mentioned why don't we target the rich and wealthy who use our fairly priced facilities.
This was met with 'rich stay rich' approach.
In my line of work - advertising and marketing - we always embrace the issue or problem. If the logo has to be the centre, fine, we use that as a starting point to make somethinf great.
My point is I feel like instead of looking for excuses why not, lets embrace them as use them as a starting point.
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Jack
I applaud both Pete and you for this positive question. In my line of work we do the same.
The problem however seems to be a lack of interest by such individuals investing in football at all.
The club has actively sought this for years and years (I have done as well) and we do have some inward investment by some wealthy fans, some like CN prefer to be low profile, others like Bill recently happy to advertise it.
Also, dont forget the historical context that the last "owner" Maunders tried to fold the club and build houses, so at least with the current model the clubs future is safe.
If we could find a new angle to approach the rich and wealthy, that would be a great starting point. Any ideas anyone ?
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Yesterday Pete Hughes mentioned why don't we target the rich and wealthy who use our fairly priced facilities.
This was met with 'rich stay rich' approach.
In my line of work - advertising and marketing - we always embrace the issue or problem. If the logo has to be the centre, fine, we use that as a starting point to make somethinf great.
My point is I feel like instead of looking for excuses why not, lets embrace them as use them as a starting point.
Think the club should get you on board in some capacity as you always come up with great ideas. Not sure why they don't seem to want any help in this regard.
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Yes, great idea that.
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Yes Jack Jolly and Pete Hughes on the board is a must.
I'm sure they will be able to start turning it round. Two people who truly have the football side of things first and foremost in their minds
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Not interested. You'd be better suited Jamie with your business back ground
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If someone is investing purely money they are going to want a strong element of control, if not full control. Let’s face it, with football being such an expensive game, if an investor is unlikely to get their money back. So if an investor isn’t a fan of Altrincham FC, what’s the point of investing? It’s not even an “investment”- they might as well just write-off any money they put in.
With the current Board being, quite rightly, focused on the way the Club is run i.e. living within its means, we cannot provide that level of control to an outside investor.
To my mind the only way we can serious funds by investment is by the Club “selling” i.e. the current Board resigning and handing over the reins to an investor (which could put the long term future of the Club in jeopardy), or finding an Altrincham fan with money to burn.
And since the latter might have come forward by now, the former won’t guarantee the Club will still be around in 20 years’ time.
And that leaves just one option, continue to maintain the status quo, trying to get as much money (small amounts) out of the fans and local public, and, reluctantly, accepting that it may mean we perform below the levels we are used to playing at.
Sadly, I think that means National League North is where we’re at. I think we’ll get out of our current mire but without investment along the lines I’ve mentioned above, I cannot see the National League being reachable in the short term.
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If someone is investing purely money they are going to want a strong element of control, if not full control. Let’s face it, with football being such an expensive game, if an investor is not a supporter of the Club, they’re unlikely to get their money back. So if an investor isn’t a fan of Altrincham FC, what’s the point of investing? It’s not even an “investment”- they might as well just write-off any money they put in.
With the current Board being, quite rightly, focussed on the way the Club is run i.e. living within its means, we cannot provide that level of control to an outside investor.
To my mind the only way we can serious funds by investment is by the Club “selling” i.e. the current Board resigning and handing over the reins to an investor (which could put the long term future of the Club in jeopardy), or finding an Altrincham fan with money to burn.
And since the latter might have come forward by now, the former won’t guarantee the Club will still be around in 20 years’ time.
And that leaves just one option, continue to maintain the status quo, trying to get as much money (small amounts) out of the fans and local public, and, reluctantly, accepting that it may mean we perform below the levels we are used to playing at.
Sadly, I think that means National League North is where we’re at. I think we’ll get out of our current mire but without investment along the lines I’ve mentioned above, I cannot see the National League being reachable in the short term.
You'd better tell Jim Harvey then...taxi for Jim
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Not interested. You'd be better suited Jamie with your business back ground
do you think I could work with this board Peter?
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Does everyone who comes in with money to invest require 100% of shares to do so or just a healthy shareholding?
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Ballers,
The answer to that will be (approximately):
If shares are £5 each (say) and there are 20,000 shares,; meaning the capital of the club was £100,000 (I am making up the numbers) then someone would need to buy half the shares to become the majority shareholder. There is no guarantee that there will be that many available for sale.
So, we were told at the meet the board session that there were some shares available for purchase. Anyone buying these would become a shareholder of the club (probably minority) and all that money would go to the club.
If that individual then decided he wanted to take over the club, he would need enough existing shareholders to sell him shares to get to the 50% mark. However that money would not go to the club, but into the pockets of the selling shareholders in exchange for their shares.
In short - someone would only put money into the club up to the value of freely available shares. Or beyond that once he has spent money that would not go to the club whilst he hoovers up enough shares to take over.
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Ballers,
The answer to that will be (approximately):
If shares are £5 each (say) and there are 20,000 shares,; meaning the capital of the club was £100,000 (I am making up the numbers) then someone would need to buy half the shares to become the majority shareholder. There is no guarantee that there will be that many available for sale.
So, we were told at the meet the board session that there were some shares available for purchase. Anyone buying these would become a shareholder of the club (probably minority) and all that money would go to the club.
If that individual then decided he wanted to take over the club, he would need enough existing shareholders to sell him shares to get to the 50% mark. However that money would not go to the club, but into the pockets of the selling shareholders in exchange for their shares.
In short - someone would only put money into the club up to the value of freely available shares. Or beyond that once he has spent money that would not go to the club whilst he hoovers up enough shares to take over.
I suppose in theory the board could propose a further share issue subject to shareholders approval. Let's say the equivalent to 100.01% of the current no of shares is issued. I think Company rules say existing shareholders have first dibs, so provided the Board don't add any restrictions on the number of shares an individual could buy, then all of them could be bought by one person who would have to be an existing shareholder. This would mean all proceeds would go to the club, there'd be one single majority shareholder and a resultant dilution of influence of the existing shareholders. If an Alty fan turned sugar daddy did emerge it's a way to make sure all funds ended up in the club's pocket. *wakes up from dream*
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Yeh, I think you've taken my reply too literally...
I was making the point that an investor doesn't mean taking the club over lock stock and barrel.
I find the standpoint that if anyone else in the world was to get involved then it could possibly go wrong so let's not have it as an option both futile and ridiculous.
If we've been brainwashed or cowered to that extent, or the experiences of Maunders and Berman have killed our ambitions and bravery that much then that it greater damage than either of them ever did.
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Not interested. You'd be better suited Jamie with your business back ground
do you think I could work with this board Peter?
With respect Jamie, I think you would need to learn many new skills before you could work with any board.
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Not interested. You'd be better suited Jamie with your business back ground
do you think I could work with this board Peter?
With respect Jamie, I think you would need to learn many new skills before you could work with any board.
I think a few of the board need a few skills before people can work with them.
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Yeh, I think you've taken my reply too literally...
I was making the point that an investor doesn't mean taking the club over lock stock and barrel.
I find the standpoint that if anyone else in the world was to get involved then it could possibly go wrong so let's not have it as an option both futile and ridiculous.
If we've been brainwashed or cowered to that extent, or the experiences of Maunders and Berman have killed our ambitions and bravery that much then that it greater damage than either of them ever did.
The point I was trying to make was that an “investment” is where you expect to receive an added benefit at some point in the future.
Based on the current philosophy of living within our means, it is extremely difficult to see where any return on investment would come from.
My view is that you would gain an external investor if they had control of the Club and could run it as they want, potentially speculating to accumulate, thereby getting a return on their investment. And that kind of approach won’t necessarily leave the Club in the best of positions.
I acknowledge the fears of previous Board members wanting to make money from the Club but those fears are founded up and down the footballing pyramid.
Personally, I would rather ensure the future of my club was safeguarded, even if that meant playing below the levels we were used to.
As a side point however, I think there definitely needs to be a Club liaison officer in place: someone who provides a bridge between the Board and the supporters (TASC) who has a neutral role, purely to discuss issues raised by the supporters with the Board, relay responses (obviously censored for any confidential pieces of information), and vice versa.
Every organisation works best when people can make their feelings known to the people who run that organisation, and can respond accordingly. However that person would have to have a good business sense as figures on a piece of paper e.g. the Club’s annual accounts, don’t always tell you what is going on behind the scenes and sometimes need a variety of explanatory notes.
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Very sound points made by factorlink. In an ideal world we would find a benefactor - i.e. someone who donated money without either strings or an agenda - but Utopia doesn't exist. What I feel we don't want or need is an investor, for the reasons factorlink outlines. It is most important to me that the club is solvent, extant & competing at the highest sustainable level. If at this moment in time that means National League North, so be it - if in due course the Football League expands by admitting eight National League clubs then perhaps a place in the National League becomes a realistic possibility and we see where we might go from there. However, for the present the concentration has to be on climbing up the table in our current league! The point about a liaison officer is an extremely sound one.
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Mike, I'm never ever accepting regional football for this club. The reason we're here now is because we haven't taken steps to attract the necessary investment. We're currently being overtaken by clubs from beneath us like Fylde and Salford. With that attitude we'll continue to be overtaken by Wyhthenshawe Town etc never kind the burton's or Fleetwoods who have gone way beyond.
And I'm sorry, a few people are a bit naive if they think the current structure is a decent guarantee of the clubs longevity. There are a number of people who hold shares because they expect Moss Land to be sold for housing (and it will eventually). At which point they won't be pouring their profits into the future of the club or a new ground, they'll be off! At least with an investor of the type you and factor link talk of they'd build a replacement ground - and yes I do acknowledge the absolute asset stripping that goes on in these cases sometimes.
But I digress, I don't want to hijack the thread as it could reach 100 pages. What I wanted to reply to Pukka about the new angle was...
To expect an investor to be completely benevolent is just ridiculous, hence why we don't attract them. What I would say is are people prepared to give a portion of control (shares) to someone willing to invest. I'm not entirely certain we are.
I've got to be honest, even if I had the money I'm not sure id give it with no real say other than the goodwill of the directors that take it.
I don't think there's any doubt given our location and potential that we work hard enough or are prepared to grant a bit of control to attract anyone to assist us in doing anything more than bumble along. And I think this should be one of the key priorities for people who run the club. I also fear that Grahame doesn't grasp this and views that the way ahead lies the opposite way with just lots of volunteers running a nice little club. We have to be bolder than that.
I do absolutely acknowledge though that there have been recent times where Grahame and the board have been entirely correct with this approach and it's a balancing act - they've probably had a decade of absolute shysters/drug dealers/ Jim Rushes contacting them to take over - but really you have to be adaptable.
I think one of the original driving ideas of the CSH was that it would bring us onto greater contact with wealthy individuals in the area and create an entry route for potential investment was it not?
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I agree that national football must always be the target.
The reason we are here now is because, after many years of trying,....... we havent attracted a sugar daddy like Fylde, Barrow, Salford and others have.
And those of us who remember what the last one tried to do (who owned 76.1% of the shares btw) shudder when we recall that, ie shut the club and build houses.
What the club HAS done is follow the community model, and despite what a few, possibly ill informed, people seem to think, the club has done this extremely successfully, won awards and grants as well.
Not to mention securing an 80 year lease and long term securing when the last one was quite short.
In the late nineties maybe well into the new centrury, the club had NO community focus, no junior or youth teams, no development programmes, not even a reserve team !
In just a short time, relatively speaking, the club has made HUGE progress.
The main advantage of the CSH was seen as increasing both community involvement, matchday income and lifting the club to a new level in terms of support, and thus in time investment.
Capitalising on this success is now the main task and that is why we should all welcome the input of positive ideas and input from intelligent and committed fans like Jack and others.
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I was well around in those days Ian, although I also remember the decade of money he pumped into the club, which resulted in me (and my dad) seeing us we Birmingham, Wembley, White Hart Lane, the 90-91 season etc.
As I said, if we're going to shy away from that, then he more or less won anyway.
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I'll just leave this here from the blurb of the best book ever written (Dave Trott's Predatory Thinking')
Predatory Thinking involves looking at a challenge you can’t solve and getting upstream of it - changing it into a challenge you can solve.
Lack of investment, lack of volunteers, lack of whatever.. just needs a new way to look at the issue
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Some really good points on this thread.
I think its clear that a non-league football club in Greater Manchester is simply not an investment opportunity to make money. Its a labour of love and any investor cant simply pump money in directly to us achieving on pitch success as it would need a bottomless pit or we just accept that the bubble will eventually burst. We need to invest in this club in a way that provides long term income. It doesn't necessarily mean someone simply having money.
Jack Jolly makes a good point about turning this into a challenge as oppose to a sob story. I think this is genuinely a marketing decision for the club to make. Where we are based and the people that surround us, do we think our niche is as a community club, thats family friendly? I'm not so sure thats what could pull the gates up to 2000 a game.
I think we need to look around us both in terms of our locality and other successful clubs around the country at our level.
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To get this club somewhere decent i am guessing it needs towards £500k or £1m over a sustained period. Ideally one would bring in 5 - 10 HNW's each putting in £100k, in a manner to protect the cub against a Maunders type scenario. Issue is that this will only be down with the blessing of current shareholders who would be diluted down to a very small shareholding...nobody is going to gift the club that type of money unless that have a degree of control to make sure the money goes into facilities (weather proofing pitch seems critical for example) and a sustainable players budget. I know not the board personally or their objectives, but the do not seem to have deep pockets, so its unlikely they will put in anything like that money...but if they view their interest in the club as a "Trophy Asset" then this could be a blocking factor, even if one finds the HNW's (which is a big ask)
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HNW?
sorry - help need here...
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High Net Worth
Probably someone with £2m - £4m of assets (obviously more is better, but the no. of people above this level is quite scarce) who can happily burn £100k without feeling too much pain.
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And "burn" is an important term, as if someone comes in who thinks they will get a return on that investment, they are so delusional that you do not want them anywhere near the club. It has to be a labour of love and a sustained investment and something that is for the community...and only for the community. These are factors that make finding the money, even in a relatively affluent WA14/WA15 area, quite a challenge.
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High Net Worth
Probably someone with £2m - £4m of assets (obviously more is better, but the no. of people above this level is quite scarce) who can happily burn £100k without feeling too much pain.
Ah. ta. This kind of excludes me then...
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High Net Worth
Probably someone with £2m - £4m of assets (obviously more is better, but the no. of people above this level is quite scarce) who can happily burn £100k without feeling too much pain.
Ah. ta. This kind of excludes me then...
Ah..come on..empty the piggy bank and I am sure you can pony up £100k :) Just 9 more to find !!!!
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And "burn" is an important term, as if someone comes in who thinks they will get a return on that investment, they are so delusional that you do not want them anywhere near the club. It has to be a labour of love and a sustained investment and something that is for the community...and only for the community. These are factors that make finding the money, even in a relatively affluent WA14/WA15 area, quite a challenge.
It's the most affluent area in Greater Manchester by a long distance
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It's the most affluent area in Greater Manchester by a long distance
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Well, obviously York Alty is all signed up. You think we can get a few more from this area?
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It's the most affluent area in Greater Manchester by a long distance
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Well, obviously York Alty is all signed up. You think we can get a few more from this area?
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Sorry - just spent the last 100k on midget gems.
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That is a LOT of Midget Gems!
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That is a LOT of Midget Gems!
don't tell anyone but Big Sam got me a good deal.
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That is a LOT of Midget Gems!
don't tell anyone but Big Sam got me a good deal.
not a snide one ?