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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: Mrs Warbouys on August 15, 2012, 09:27:33 AM
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Go to 5.40 secs, never a penalty but look what happens after it goes in!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E4anym3TszY#!
PS I bet Woking don't segregated half their ground as a sterile area!
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Pete,
I'm not looking for a row but the last paragraph is a cheap shot IMHO.
You and some others might not choose to volunteer to Steward or to give up your own time to acquire qualifications in crowd safety and that is your right.
However some people do and then give up even more of their own time to sort out the organisation of games, speak to and meet with the Council, Police and other Clubs, arrange additional stewards, turn up over three hours prior to kick off to ensure the ground is safe etc.
We might or might not agree with the implementation of segregation or the extent of any sterile area but, having done the job some time ago, I'd not want to do it again but I am grateful that someone wants to do it otherwise we'd be playing behind closed doors
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No, I just pay £13 to watch BSN football and have my matchday experience overlooked in favour of 20 people with beards and wolly hats that come here once a season.
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I'm with Socrates on this one. I've never seen another club in Britain with a sterile area as ridiculous as ours! Whats up with the purpose built segregation and sterile area which worked without a hitch for many years?
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I wondered how long it would be before this was turned into a "don't criticise volunteers" issue.
No one is criticising stewards, chairman anyone and everyone is grateful for the work that they do.
People have complained about this situation as they have every right to do as paying customers. People have also offered ways around the issue.
It raises so many more issues than it solves:
1) It displaces people from where they usually stand, usually with friends so changes their matchday experience.
2) It means that the younger/old enough to know better (and usually noiser lads) have to stand down the side with people who choose not to sing and shout. This ruins two lots of supporters experience, making the younger lads feel awkward and the older ones annoyed that they have to listen to it.
3) Maybe people shouldnt swear at football matches but they do. When we were taunted by that tit from Gainsborough last game of the season with some badge kissing it forced people who wouldnt normally be involved in that to listen to it. I've always said that if you are easily offended by some swearing don't stand in the noisest bit of the ground and people normally don't. This takes way there choice.
4) I have never seen a sterile area bigger than the space allocated for people to stand before.
And people have offered sensible suggestions:
1) If away fans want cover they can sit down and get cover. Otherwise they stand on the away end.
2) If we want a larger sterile area then cut a third of the away end off with a fence to keep fans further away from the corner. The sterile area in the corner has worked fine for 30 years (bar one incident), why not now?
3) If we must give cover on the pop side then move the fences down to create a 10 metre sterile area further on. Then people can spread out under the higher roof and not have a restricted view.
I very rarely feel the need to criticise what the club does but on this occasion someone has got it wrong. And the fact they are volunteers shouldn't take away the right to say how you feel.
I feel very strongly about this (can you tell?). I would never want to do anything that jeopardised the safety of our wonderful stewards and organisers without whom we wouldn't be able to watch the game. However this current situation is complete overkill.
Its also worth remembering that this forum represents 30-40 out of 550, how many people are complaining who we don't hear of or who could stop or have stopped coming.
Its a situation that can be fixed. I hope it doesn't arise again this season.
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Haven't been to a home game in a good while, but it definitely seems like the club have got it wrong here.
And those scenes were bloody ridiculous by the way. Running on to the pitch? What a numpty.
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And an after thought, before I get off this box.
If an away crowd turn up and they look like they have the potential to cause some trouble then the home fans should only be allowed to two thirds of the way down. Then our corner would be an extended sterile area. This could inconvenience the away fans if its raining but that's life, inconvenience the people who come once a year not 25 times a year.
That has worked fine in other matches and no one has complained.
And finally, I don't want anyone to think I am suggesting putting stewards in danger just so we can watch the match from where we want. However there has to be a balance and its gone to much the other way at present.
Rant over.
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Everyone appreciates the hard work all volunteers do, and take great pleasure telling people about the clubs fantastic volunteers. But as said elsewhere, customer satisfaction needs to be taken on board also, without anyone getting offended or being offended on behalf of people.Football is an entertainment business, and the satisfaction of the 750 hardcore supporters as just as important as everyone else's. No volunteers = no football club, but so does no supporters.I love how I'm the first one to be pulled up on mentioning this when people have aired views on it for over 12 months by the way.The view of the Carole Nash and family terrace goal is virtually non existent from the first third of the popular side.So effectively your paying to watch half a match.
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Back to the original footage, the ref looked like one of those "Look at me!" refs with his body language; chest out, head up type of thing.
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Well said Ecky, one thing that really hacks me off about our club, is that if you dare criticise anything, all you get back is the same old "I don't see you volunteering" spiel, blah blah. As Ecky said, as a paying customer we are entitled to have an opinion
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I asked for the an additional sterile area to be built a few years ago but it always came down to money, I suggested
like the one they used to have at the Drillfield. One of the reasons i gave up was the amount of time i had
to imput into planning a game and i know i didn't always get it right hence all your displeasure.
I agree looking back it was an odd thing to do but at the time it seemed right.
I am no longer involed but apologise for starting this crazy situation.
Lets hope the club can finally come up with a sensible solution.
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Agree completely with Ecky and Socrates. This issue has been going on for YEARS and despite numerous complaints, we are still being ignored.
Premier League clubs don't have sterile areas a tenth of what we have, it's absolutely ridiculous. The bit in the corner is a natural and suitable sterile area, anything else is overkill.
I swear if we have to put up with it again this season I am going to go ballistic.
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Segregation at Manchester United, two or threes covered by green netting and some stewards.
Segregation at Moss Lane, two rows of fences, a sterile area as long as anyone has seen and some stewards.
Something is not right here me thinks.
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Classy though wasn't it, scoring his pen then goading the keeper. Sole should be severely punished for starting all that trouble in my opinion.
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Segregation at Manchester United, two or threes covered by green netting and some stewards.
Segregation at Moss Lane, two rows of fences, a sterile area as long as anyone has seen and some stewards.
Something is not right here me thinks.
There's more stewards and police in that area thaat Altricham use in a whole season, they have the money and resources
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Segregation at Manchester United, two or threes covered by green netting and some stewards.
Segregation at Moss Lane, two rows of fences, a sterile area as long as anyone has seen and some stewards.
Something is not right here me thinks.
There's more stewards and police in that area thaat Altricham use in a whole season, they have the money and resources
Name one other non-league club which has such OTT segregation?
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I asked for the an additional sterile area to be built a few years ago but it always came down to money, I suggested
like the one they used to have at the Drillfield. One of the reasons i gave up was the amount of time i had
to imput into planning a game and i know i didn't always get it right hence all your displeasure.
I agree looking back it was an odd thing to do but at the time it seemed right.
I am no longer involed but apologise for starting this crazy situation.
Lets hope the club can finally come up with a sensible solution.
Darren,
Not looking to blame anyone or for heads to roll. I'm just trying to highlight my personal feelings and those of others I speak to that aren't on here. This isn't something that will go away if it doesn't get changed.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting anything that would cost money and my original idea was to move the existing fences that are a third of the way down to 10 metres away from the fences that are two thirds of the way down.
I'll help move them if need be.
Thus creating a sterile area for use if needed (which it wouldnt be in 80% of the games anyway) and still allow people to go under the large roof like we did in the Conference and still give cover to away fans if that is what we are so keen on.
There are loads of ways of doing it at little or no cost. I don't want to become campaign manager on this or cause any trouble but I love the atmosphere at Alty and don't want it spoilt.
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I don't understand how it would cost any money - just move the fence!!
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I don't understand how it would cost any money - just move the fence!!
I think Darren wanted something more permanent in place, hence the potential for costs to be incurred. However, I agree that moving the temporary fencing would serve a similar purpose, it's just less aesthetically pleasing than proper barriers.
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Back to the original footage, the ref looked like one of those "Look at me!" refs with his body language; chest out, head up type of thing.
You'd have a pop if the bloke sat down and had a brew while pretending nothing's going on though. And for the record, I was told when it gets a bit violent, blow your whistle repeatedly and take notes
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One of our problems is that the popular side does not have graduated steps at the back, therefore when there are a lot of alty fans there, its very difficult to see the game. Agree with comments made the segregation is too big, and only appropriate for the visit of a football league club or club like oxford / wrexham.
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In an ideal world, we would have a totally revamped popular side with steeper terracing and a big new roof. However, it all comes back down to that old chestnut of money. :(
If only we knew someone who'd won £148m on the lottery.... :)
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Im sure this is gathering dust in deepest Cheshire
(http://imagecache.soccerway.com/venues/600x450/1508.jpg)
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I don't understand how it would cost any money - just move the fence!!
The fences are to big to fix anywhere else hence they would need cutting down or smaller fences sauced
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I'm sure the people who bought the land said they would give that to the club or the local council for use when they relocate, though?
That would be ideal though, as long as we could paint it in our colours! :) :) :)
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I'm sure the people who bought the land said they would give that to the club or the local council for use when they relocate, though?
You know more than me
That would be ideal though, as long as we could paint it in our colours! :) :) :)
Its a belting stand, superb views from it and excellent segregation
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wernt there complaints about the sterile area not being big enough on our last two visits to the dump ?
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wernt there compalaints about the strile area not being big enough on our last two visits to the dump .
yeah but it made it more fun :)
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I don't understand how it would cost any money - just move the fence!!
The fences are to big to fix anywhere else hence they would need cutting down or smaller fences sauced
In which case we come back to the original question, do we just need the sterile area in the corner as segregation?
I also understand that provision must be made for away supporters to have cover. In this instance a sign at the turnstile saying "covered accomodation for away supporters is available in the main stand" sorts that out.
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First of all thanks to all the stewards and volunteers who work so hard.
My gripe with the excessive segregation layout is that loyal Alty fans who pump money week in week out into the club are effectively treated as second class citizens compared to a relatively small number of people who come here once a year.
Let them stand on chequers, and they can pay to sit in the stand if they want cover.
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That ref was properly terrible. Booking the guy for talking to the assistant (OK I couldn't hear what he was saying) but he wasn't in his face or anything and then before the pen is taken the blue no 10 has his hands on the Woking lads neck - told to stop it but no further action and then book the keeper for coming off his line when the penalty clearly wasn't about to be taken. I imagine it could be used as an exam question at ref school - Apart from getting the original penalty decision wrong, what did he do wrong here?
'Comments are disabled for this video' I can't think why!
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That ref was properly terrible. Booking the guy for talking to the assistant (OK I couldn't hear what he was saying) but he wasn't in his face or anything and then before the pen is taken the blue no 10 has his hands on the Woking lads neck - told to stop it but no further action and then book the keeper for coming off his line when the penalty clearly wasn't about to be taken. I imagine it could be used as an exam question at ref school - Apart from getting the original penalty decision wrong, what did he do wrong here?
'Comments are disabled for this video' I can't think why!
I doubt he was enquiring as to the linesman's wellbeing, so a caution for dissent was (probably) justified- the letter of the law could probably have seen him earn a dismissal for Offensive, Abusive and Insulting language but I have never seen that given.
The pre-penalty 'jostling' is similar to corners- penalise one, you have to do the lot.
Why shouldn't the keeper be booked? What reason does he have to do to amble 12 yards off his line, pick the ball up and have a chat to the taker?
And if you watched the clip again, you'll see it was actually the linesman who 'gave' the penalty (although using the old penalty signal)
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i BLAME SINNOTT.
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I'm sure the people who bought the land said they would give that to the club or the local council for use when they relocate, though?
That would be ideal though, as long as we could paint it in our colours! :) :) :)
They did, but that's on the assumption Vics survive and/or ever get another ground!
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I think the liner got it wrong with the penalty, but booking the player for having a go at the liner was inevitable really.....you could argue the ref would have been wrong to ignore it.
The keeper deserves his booking as well and the penalty taker will be lucky to escape an FA charge once the ref watches the vid and puts his report in
On segregation at Moss Lane, let's hope this can be sorted sensibly such that safety prevails and we can at least watch the match from the 'raised roof' section - as a 'raised roof' regular, having to watch from the Golf Rd end of the Popside is so frustrating as the view is very poor by comparison
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Decent gate for the game, nearly 1900 there under the floodlights. Makes you want to be back in the Conference.
Glad Woking are back in the Conference, always had a soft spot for them. Garry Hill is a decent manager with a good track record apart from head-butting Salisbury assistant manager
Once had a quick chat with Geoff Chapple years back at Moss Lane, nice fella....three FA trophy victories cant be bad. Clive Walker was the dogs bollocks like
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That ref was properly terrible. Booking the guy for talking to the assistant (OK I couldn't hear what he was saying) but he wasn't in his face or anything and then before the pen is taken the blue no 10 has his hands on the Woking lads neck - told to stop it but no further action and then book the keeper for coming off his line when the penalty clearly wasn't about to be taken. I imagine it could be used as an exam question at ref school - Apart from getting the original penalty decision wrong, what did he do wrong here?
'Comments are disabled for this video' I can't think why!
I doubt he was enquiring as to the linesman's wellbeing, so a caution for dissent was (probably) justified- the letter of the law could probably have seen him earn a dismissal for Offensive, Abusive and Insulting language but I have never seen that given.
The pre-penalty 'jostling' is similar to corners- penalise one, you have to do the lot.
Why shouldn't the keeper be booked? What reason does he have to do to amble 12 yards off his line, pick the ball up and have a chat to the taker?
And if you watched the clip again, you'll see it was actually the linesman who 'gave' the penalty (although using the old penalty signal)
It was the speed of the first booking - the card was out of the pocket before the bloke was within 5 yards of the assistant but you may be quite right he may have instantly said more than players usually do to officials in those couple of seconds.
The penalty jostling is not the same as corners. I got the number wrong it's the number 6 that has his hands on the neck of an opponent (6:25). I accept that the keeper could get booked but my point was that the ref didn't deal with the 'jostling' choosing instead to book the keeper for the much more serious offence of picking up a dead ball.
I take the point on the linesman giving the decision - I didn't notice that first time. It would be interesting to see if he gave the original foul, if so it was a late call or if he reacted to the ref blowing for the freekick and was simply indicating that if there was an offence it took place in the area. Actually it wouldn't be interesting at all ......
Several players acted like idiots, as did members of the crowd and their stewards don't appear to be as on the ball as ours, I think we can all agree on that!
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We REALLY need football back don't we??
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what an absolutly clueless and inept ref aided and abetted by an appraently blind liner!!!...and just look at the pompous git as he gives the pen for something he didn't see.......one of the best adolf hitler impressions ever!!
I'd wager a fotune the ref was awful right through the 90 minutes...books someone for questioning the liner when half a dozen other player were doing the same, sees three players practically wrestling but chooses to book the keeper instead so it's no wonder the players thought it ok to fight after the goal.
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what an absolutly clueless and inept ref aided and abetted by an appraently blind liner!!!...and just look at the pompous git as he gives the pen for something he didn't see.......one of the best adolf hitler impressions ever!!
I'd wager a fotune the ref was awful right through the 90 minutes...books someone for questioning the liner when half a dozen other player were doing the same, sees three players practically wrestling but chooses to book the keeper instead so it's no wonder the players thought it ok to fight after the goal.
Time to take you down a notch from your high horse.
What would you do, assuming you took your linesman's advice and gave the penalty?
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first of all I'd have gone across to the liner, waved the players away telling them i wanted to consult in peace if and they didn't walk away i'd just give the penalty without consultation... I'd have had a consultation and decided if the guy was sane or not....the ref must have seen the woking player trip himself so if it had been me I'd have told the liner he was an arsehole and awarded a drop ball....
wouldn't then have had to deal with the jostling would I?...cause and effect.....
If I'd given the pen then i'd have dealt with the jostling rather than changing my mind mid goosestep march to book the keeper...I'd probably wave the yellow to the keeper on the way....
time for you to get a horse....why book one player for doing what half a dozen players were doing?...why not deal with the jostling first and then deal with the keeper...it was inept....indefensible display backed up by the usual haughty pompous stance that just gets everyone's backs up.
Not seen a ref lose it so completely and look so sad really just blowing his whistle to no effect.....
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first of all I'd have gone across to the liner, waved the players away telling them i wanted to consult in peace if and they didn't walk away i'd just give the penalty without consultation... I'd have had a consultation and decided if the guy was sane or not....the ref must have seen the woking player trip himself so if it had been me I'd have told the liner he was an arsehole and awarded a drop ball....
wouldn't then have had to deal with the jostling would I?...cause and effect.....
If I'd given the pen then i'd have dealt with the jostling rather than changing my mind mid goosestep march to book the keeper...I'd probably wave the yellow to the keeper on the way....
time for you to get a horse....why book one player for doing what half a dozen players were doing?...why not deal with the jostling first and then deal with the keeper...it was inept....indefensible display backed up by the usual haughty pompous stance that just gets everyone's backs up.
Not seen a ref lose it so completely and look so sad really just blowing his whistle to no effect.....
The ref looked to me, with his body language, a prancing ninny; very dismissive of the players and haughty body language.
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The ref looked to me, with his body language, a prancing ninny; very dismissive of the players and haughty body language.
exactly this.....refs will make mistakes just as players do and just as I do in occasionally in my job.....it's their holier than thou pompous never admit they are wrong attitude that gets everyone's backs up and loses the players respect.....it's like me crashing the car and then waving away my boss's protests and shaking my head vigorously when he points out the car has no front end anymore before strutting out of the office.....and then because it wasn't in my daily log report the insurance company refusing to pay out as well....
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To my mind, any refereeing mistakes/shortcomings are secondary to the bad behaviour of some of the players and fans. As I said previously, Sole should have the book thrown at him for what he did after scoring his pen.
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Sole is a heel. He should get a tongue lashing, and then the boot.
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I agree players have a responsibility and their behaviour on this occasion was like a crowd of out of control schoolkids....mind you, we all had a teacher with whom you just knew you could run riot.....and there were teachers you respected....there is a parralel here I think...
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Away fans are given the away end - Home fans have the rest of the the standing area, with the far corner acting as a sterile area. This should be the same for all league games.
I seem to remember standing on that open terrace at York a few years ago in the rain, didn't hear Alty fans complaining about the lack of cover. If away fans want cover go in the seating area or bring an umbrella.
That's the end of the debate as far as i am concerned.
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This thread is like an episode of Heartbeat, with two completely separate stories going on at the same time! :D
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I don't understand how it would cost any money - just move the fence!!
The fences are to big to fix anywhere else hence they would need cutting down or smaller fences sauced
Ohhh yes, I'm quite partial to a bit of lightly sauced fence
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I don't understand how it would cost any money - just move the fence!!
The fences are to big to fix anywhere else hence they would need cutting down or smaller fences sauced
Ohhh yes, I'm quite partial to a bit of lightly sauced fence
That's quite enough of YOUR sauce Uncle G !
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The sterile area is sh*t.
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what know one seems to have mentioned is, the away fans have about a 3 and a half foot fence in front of them, its hardly segregation, if they wanted to invade the pitch, whats to stop them, the same goes for the segregation barriers where ever you put them, they are still only six feet high, if they wanted to climb over them, they would, barriers are a waste of time, but who would have to pay for more policing if a BIG ex league club came to town ???
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first of all I'd have gone across to the liner, waved the players away telling them i wanted to consult in peace if and they didn't walk away i'd just give the penalty without consultation... I'd have had a consultation and decided if the guy was sane or not....the ref must have seen the woking player trip himself so if it had been me I'd have told the liner he was an arsehole and awarded a drop ball....
wouldn't then have had to deal with the jostling would I?...cause and effect.....
If I'd given the pen then i'd have dealt with the jostling rather than changing my mind mid goosestep march to book the keeper...I'd probably wave the yellow to the keeper on the way....
time for you to get a horse....why book one player for doing what half a dozen players were doing?...why not deal with the jostling first and then deal with the keeper...it was inept....indefensible display backed up by the usual haughty pompous stance that just gets everyone's backs up.
Not seen a ref lose it so completely and look so sad really just blowing his whistle to no effect.....
So dishing out cards willy nilly to anyone who pushes or shoves and ending up with 3 players on the field without a booking is the answer then?
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now come along, you cannot defend refs one minute by quoting the letter of the law and then come out with that sort of nonsense...and continuing your logic if all the players deliberatly handball, fight, break legs in tackles the ref is powerless to act for fear of having too high a card count.....is that what you are saying?
there is a difference between pushing and shoving and general jostling as at every corner and wrestling....or can you not see that?...and personally I'd love to see this sort of crap forced out of the game yes by booking and sending off until the players get the message and by using video evidence after matches to mop up what the ref did or didn't see wether he'd put the thing in his bible match report or not!!!
the ref lost control, the players acted like naughty schoolkids....I suspect there is a link .....maybe there isn't.......but please don't defend refs for defending refs sake because I promise you you will trip yourself up with contradictions.....
at the end of the day if the ref showed some humility and talked to the players instead of waving in their faces and prancing round like a commandant he wouldn't annoy the fans and players quite so much.....or do you disagree with that too?
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just to finish on an agreement do you not agree in such instances that the ref should have pulled over the dartford captain at the point of consulting with the liner and got him to get the players to calm down?...this should be a standard practice in such unattractive scenes of players surrounding officials and shows authority far more than the usual high and mighty (in my view very ignorant and almost insulting) waving away, shaking head etc???
In the community shield there was a great piece of reffing where ashley cole was getting a tad over excited and had flown into a few challenges, the ref had already sent off a chelsea player for a reckless tackle ealrier....so the ref called john terry over and got him to have a word...everyone could see and understand what the ref was doing and it was more likely to get a respectful response than strutting over and dramatically flourishing a card?