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[thegazelle]

didnt bother reading most of this thread as my biggoted mind is already made up.

they are a bunch of pot smoking , dragon chasing, dole scrounging, commies who should be shot give them a decent steak dinner (rare)

[Dougals Dad]

No mate but as my parents used to read it I realised there couldn't be one worse. They "upgraded" to The Mail, which I consider slightly less offensive.

I struggle with all my heart to understand how a family who fought to get a decent life through the industrial revolution/ migration from Ireland and Lancashire into central Manchester slums only escaping via slum clearance to a "new" world in Wythenshawe then Sale Moor can consider themselves Tories. You really shouldn't forget where you come from.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the new chav "give it me" society, but the old days were where real people had real values. Recently, on the issue of the 1901 census you see how people with nothing at all tried, managed and looked out for one another, even if 10 lived in 3 rooms. My forebears.

I know my roots, accept them and understand how people feel who have not got life on a plate.

I think Tories stand for giving a person the opportunity to work hard to better themselves whereas Socialism simply lets the state pay for you to stay in the Manchester slums, Wythenshaw etc.

Walking through Edinburgh the other week when J's mum was working towards world domination there was the usual group of people selling Socialist Worker and asking for petitions to be signed.....I think I upset one of them when I pointed to Jennifer and told him w called her Margaret after Mrs T.


I then ran!

Churchill said "Ohhhhh Yes!"

The other Churchill said that democracy is not very good, but its the best system we have.
Orwell said "All are equal, but some are more equal than others"

That is why democracy (& capitalism through association) works better than a totalitarian state.

[viennaalty]

Jut got back from the pub watching the England match with some Ukrainian colleagues who grew up under communism. I've known them a while and they always said to me life was pretty good then although I guess most people have relatively fond memories of their childhoods. However, their insight was effectively that communism was bad, in so much as every one was guaranteed employment and therefore the competition in life was extracted meaning no-one gave a toss about doing any work! That's why anybody visiting Eastern Europe will often notice the sub-standard customer service (particularly from the older generations).

As has previously been said in this thread, the ideology of communism cannot work - in my opinion due to human nature. Capitalism ensures competition which in turn boosts production...

[Dougals Dad]

Jut got back from the pub watching the England match with some Ukrainian colleagues who grew up under communism. I've known them a while and they always said to me life was pretty good then although I guess most people have relatively fond memories of their childhoods. However, their insight was effectively that communism was bad, in so much as every one was guaranteed employment and therefore the competition in life was extracted meaning no-one gave a toss about doing any work! That's why anybody visiting Eastern Europe will often notice the sub-standard customer service (particularly from the older generations).

As has previously been said in this thread, the ideology of communism cannot work - in my opinion due to human nature. Capitalism ensures competition which in turn boosts production...

A political comparison to evolution - survival of the fittest - and provides survival of the civilisation.

[Alex]

i love a good politial debate, reading this thread has been quite insightful into how people on this fourm think (when not talking football).

as for the debate i tend to agree with mike, that in my years at school and my A Levels (studying history and the rusian revolution / cold war) i just dnt see communism as practcal and it just doesn't work in practice. there will always be people who want more or knw how to manipulate a system to get more ( i mean as baldrick says in bulgaria communist party members live in luxary unlike the rest - kind of a do as i say not as i do type philosophy. On paper it's a great idea and the book Animal farm is a great insight into the ideal but eventually shows how it doesn't work (how many countrys who went communist during the last centry still have the system in it's true form?)

and i agree socialism in action does tend to keep peole where they are, just in wythenshawe alone you can find people who live there who lives within a five mile radious in the same social situation from birth till death, never striving for more probably because when those with the drive to do so try they get told they crnt because of where there from. This i know for a FACT as when i tell people who have never met me before that i am from wythenhawe i am imeadiaty put down in there minds due to a stereotype that stems from the policy of getting for nothing that people live off in these areas. i mean if the state gives you a house, money, benifits, free health care / dentist care whats there to try and work for? so people just coast through life.  

just my view like, hope it sounds like i mean it too  

[markecky]

Reading this thread makes me wish I had listened more at school!

[AltyTunnelSteward]

and i agree socialism in action does tend to keep peole where they are, just in wythenshawe alone you can find people who live there who lives within a five mile radious in the same social situation from birth till death, never striving for more probably because when those with the drive to do so try they get told they crnt because of where there from. This i know for a FACT as when i tell people who have never met me before that i am from wythenhawe i am imeadiaty put down in there minds due to a stereotype that stems from the policy of getting for nothing that people live off in these areas. i mean if the state gives you a house, money, benifits, free health care / dentist care whats there to try and work for? so people just coast through life. 

Could it not be argued however that, in certain cases, this failure or reluctance to move is not ac=tually a failure or reluctance but an inability caused by the preconceptions of others about the residents of a certain area?

It is interesting that this debate has filtered down, largely to a compare, contrast, evaluate exercise on Capitalism versus Communism with very little mention or evaluation of the bits in between and some very polarised views being expounded.

Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view

[Reading Robin]

It is interesting that this debate has filtered down, largely to a compare, contrast, evaluate exercise on Capitalism versus Communism with very little mention or evaluation of the bits in between and some very polarised views being expounded.

Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view

Care to expand on that last bit? 

I think people are aware there is plenty in between, we just got (pleasantly) dragged into a discussion of communism.  Rather than as an alternative in the current situation.
I'm relatively uneducated on economics, but i blame the crisis on executives/bankers taking too many risks to chase those huge bonuses. 

I've stopped to buy the Socialist Worker before, partly out of curiousity.  I got a couple of 10 min phone calls from the sociaiist candidate for Reading after that, which i guess indicates the lack of support they have.   
 

[thegazelle]

soap dodgers the lot of em send them all back to their lay by in somerset

[Alex]

Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view

and your posts says to me you are very much up your own arse....in my view 

[CB]

Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view

At least (most of them) know how to use the quote function...

[wonderstuff]

Correct Mr Hughes.

Wearing the clothes, eating the food blah blah blah.

I love a protestor who doesn't have a viable alternative, should we go back to the fuedal sytem? Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....

I'd argue that communism has never been implemented, not in a major country for any sustained period of time at least.  Even the USSR leaders admitted this. 

I have my sympathies with the protestors- the bonuses being given in the crisis are infuriating.  Years of campaigning have had little effect, so they take a more direct approach; not to say i agree with them, but i understand the frustration. 

The majority will have alternatives (though most are radical changes), the thing is that the group is such a mish-mash.  Anarchists, socialists, environmentalists, anti-war, anti-globalisation.  It's not a choice of the free market or communism. 

I think the Chinese might have something to say about this.

[AltyTunnelSteward]

What I meant was that people on this forum have strongly held views - many things are very much black and white with very few shades of grey in evidence.

It was in no way any form of criticism

[RocketDan]

If only the Americans had voted for Ron Paul.

[bighairedmike]

If only the Americans had voted for Ron Paul.

Don't even get me started on Obama...