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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: RockyRobin on April 01, 2009, 01:52:46 PM
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I was right!
Oxford Utd fans are currently trying to storm the Bank of England.
Alty are standing their ground.....
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This f**k wittery is a national embarrassment. They should tear gas the lot of them, all middle class twerps from surrey with nowt better to do. I bet they came in to the city on a train or a bus operated by a company owned by a multi-national or financed by a large bank, the thick f**kers.
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Correct Mr Hughes.
Wearing the clothes, eating the food blah blah blah.
I love a protestor who doesn't have a viable alternative, should we go back to the fuedal sytem? Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
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This f**k wittery is a national embarrassment. They should tear gas the lot of them, all middle class twerps from surrey with nowt better to do. I bet they came in to the city on a train or a bus operated by a company owned by a multi-national or financed by a large bank, the thick f**kers.
Vote Hughesy :D
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Rocky - are you wearing the same suit and tie that you had on last night on the Terraces at Ebbsfleet?
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On a serious note, one of my mates who came to the game last night works in the city and through his window he has seen groups of grotty scrotes surrounding people in suits and generally causing havoc all day. It's just not on, most of them don't even believe in the "cause" they just want to cause trouble!
Then there's the tax bill for the 5000 policemen/women that the taxpayer is going to be picking up.
Scum!
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Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
whereas capitalism is doing a spiffing job
oh wait....
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Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
whereas capitalism is doing a spiffing job
oh wait....
All things considered, I'd say it's doing fine.
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Rocky - are you wearing the same suit and tie that you had on last night on the Terraces at Ebbsfleet?
I have dispensed of the suit for today, up at 6am to make sure I got on the train before the cheap tickets start for the pikeys!
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Anarchy in the UK ;)
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Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
whereas capitalism is doing a spiffing job
oh wait....
Communism makes everybody poor.
A significant part of capitalism is the acceptance of an economy that will boom and then bust. Some political scientists say that bust is needed to create a bigger boom than before.
I think history has shown both of these things to be true.
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Leftie idiots.
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Correct Mr Hughes.
Wearing the clothes, eating the food blah blah blah.
I love a protestor who doesn't have a viable alternative, should we go back to the fuedal sytem? Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
I'd argue that communism has never been implemented, not in a major country for any sustained period of time at least. Even the USSR leaders admitted this.
I have my sympathies with the protestors- the bonuses being given in the crisis are infuriating. Years of campaigning have had little effect, so they take a more direct approach; not to say i agree with them, but i understand the frustration.
The majority will have alternatives (though most are radical changes), the thing is that the group is such a mish-mash. Anarchists, socialists, environmentalists, anti-war, anti-globalisation. It's not a choice of the free market or communism.
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Correct Mr Hughes.
Wearing the clothes, eating the food blah blah blah.
I love a protestor who doesn't have a viable alternative, should we go back to the fuedal sytem? Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
I'd argue that communism has never been implemented, not in a major country for any sustained period of time at least. Even the USSR leaders admitted this.
I have my sympathies with the protestors- the bonuses being given in the crisis are infuriating. Years of campaigning have had little effect, so they take a more direct approach; not to say i agree with them, but i understand the frustration.
The majority will have alternatives (though most are radical changes), the thing is that the group is such a mish-mash. Anarchists, socialists, environmentalists, anti-war, anti-globalisation. It's not a choice of the free market or communism.
Communism has an unbelievably optimistic view of human nature. They reckon that everybody is equal andeverybody is willing to accept that. The truth is that everybody wants to make the best for themselves and this is obviously going to be at the expense of others. This is why communism hasn't/can't/won't work.
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Yep, i'd agree with that pretty much on communism, but not that everybody wants the best for themselves. There are some people (certainly not me though!) who are willing to completely focus on others above their own desires.
The vast majority of these people aren't communists anyway.
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Yep, i'd agree with that pretty much on communism, but not that everybody wants the best for themselves. There are some people (certainly not me though!) who are willing to completely focus on others above their own desires.
The vast majority of these people aren't communists anyway.
I should have said the majority and not everybody to be honest. With a majority of people that do not believe that absolutely everybody is equal how can a communist state ever work?
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It can't, or at least it is very unlikely to work. I wasn't arguing that it would work, my initial point about it was just a technicality.
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This is a strange debate for a football forum, but just a thought to add to it. I was once told that there has only been one TRUE communist and that was Jesus Christ. Think about it, that could just be true.....................I wonder.
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Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
whereas capitalism is doing a spiffing job
oh wait....
Communism makes everybody poor.
A significant part of capitalism is the acceptance of an economy that will boom and then bust. Some political scientists say that bust is needed to create a bigger boom than before.
I think history has shown both of these things to be true.
for capitalism to work there must be losers, for people to be rich then some have to be poor
hurrah for us for having the dumb luck to be born in the 10% of the world poulation that does well out of it
i'm not pretending to have any solutions, just that things are not as easy/cut and dried as some would have you believe
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By gum its this kind of thinking that put the stoppers in place
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Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
whereas capitalism is doing a spiffing job
oh wait....
Communism makes everybody poor.
A significant part of capitalism is the acceptance of an economy that will boom and then bust. Some political scientists say that bust is needed to create a bigger boom than before.
I think history has shown both of these things to be true.
for capitalism to work there must be losers, for people to be rich then some have to be poor
hurrah for us for having the dumb luck to be born in the 10% of the world poulation that does well out of it
i'm not pretending to have any solutions, just that things are not as easy/cut and dried as some would have you believe
True we are lucky, however within that luck we have put ourselves to work to keep that luck and to improve on it.
I don't appreciate tossers causing harm in their drive for their wants, just as selfish as the fat cats.
The zillion pound bonuses were for hundreds not thousands of City workers! Trying to smash up the Bank of England and spraying obsenities on it really isn't going to help, just cost more money!
It's my colleagues that are trying to sort out this mess we are in and this is the thanks they get!
Although on what I witnessed out of the window it was the usual few muppets given it the large one and the easy led following suit, not too disimilar to football strava actually. I knew we could bring it back to Alty eventually!!!
Cue stories of Frickley in 84.....
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Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
whereas capitalism is doing a spiffing job
oh wait....
Communism makes everybody poor.
A significant part of capitalism is the acceptance of an economy that will boom and then bust. Some political scientists say that bust is needed to create a bigger boom than before.
I think history has shown both of these things to be true.
[/qoute
straight from the book of dave, classic
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Capitalism is favoured by those who have lots and dont want to share it;
Socialism is favoured by those who have nothing and do want to share it
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Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
whereas capitalism is doing a spiffing job
oh wait....
Communism makes everybody poor.
A significant part of capitalism is the acceptance of an economy that will boom and then bust. Some political scientists say that bust is needed to create a bigger boom than before.
I think history has shown both of these things to be true.
for capitalism to work there must be losers, for people to be rich then some have to be poor
hurrah for us for having the dumb luck to be born in the 10% of the world poulation that does well out of it
i'm not pretending to have any solutions, just that things are not as easy/cut and dried as some would have you believe
We are very fortunate to live in the 'wealthy' part of the world.
However poor countries aren't poor because we're rich.
Wealth is created - some of the world's most resource rich countries in the world are also the poorest, whilst countries with relatively few natural resources thrive.
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But surely that is at least in part down to the fact that the overtly capitalist in those poor countries exploit the fact that they have, by fair means or foul, got more money than others and use this money to (generally by way of corrupt activity) ensure that this remains the case
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its 20 years since i have seriously debated comparative political systems, and have very little desire to start again, however (you knew there was a however) it is my view that it is not achievable or sustainable for everyone to live at the the same level as we do, and therefore the majority of the world population are kept in poverty to feed the system. personally i do not want to give up my standard of living, but it doesnt change my analysis.
Although on what I witnessed out of the window it was the usual few muppets given it the large one and the easy led following suit, not too disimilar to football strava actually. I knew we could bring it back to Alty eventually!!!
Cue stories of Frickley in 84.....
just listening to R5 and the police estimate 5000 protestors! if we generously allow 2000 who want to cause trouble then you have to wonder what the fuss is about
god help them next time west ham play millwall
what i remember abour fricley is......
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Bankers!
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They need to get a grip and realise breaking a few windows, putting Halloween masks on blowing whistles and general arsing about in the city centre and believing they can change the state of the worlds economic situation is not going to happen. Know one with any sense wants bastard communism.
Also they need to have a look in the mirror, the shoe's on their feet, the clothes they wear, the food they eat etc is probably funded by a large corporate bank or investment firm, so what they are protesting for has gone straight out the window. Everyone knows communism does not work, look at Russia, that place is completely corrupt. This country has gone to sh*t that much the police have to stand there and say boys and girls you can't do that, bring back the good old days where gimps like protestors could get beaten about the park to knock some sense into them.
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But surely that is at least in part down to the fact that the overtly capitalist in those poor countries exploit the fact that they have, by fair means or foul, got more money than others and use this money to (generally by way of corrupt activity) ensure that this remains the case
Certainly, although I would say that the problem was more with corruption rather than capitalism. Some would say they were the same thing. ;)
it is my view that it is not achievable or sustainable for everyone to live at the the same level as we do, and therefore the majority of the world population are kept in poverty to feed the system. personally i do not want to give up my standard of living, but it doesnt change my analysis.
Probably not, due to countries developing at different rates and from different start points, equal standards of living throughout the world (without large-scale global redistribution) are unachievable.
However that doesn't mean that through the process of mutually beneficial trade developing nations can't reach the standard of living we currently enjoy within a few generations.
I suspect that Western governments would like nothing more than for countries throughout the world to develop quickly, the more developed a country the more pap you can sell to the people that live there.
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Bloody Hell, there's a few Daily Mail/Sun readers on here........may I even dare to check if the single remaining Daily Express reader resides here?
I do not condone vandalism and violence, but many of those people today have a perfectly democratic right to protest peacefully against a lot of stuff that is very wrong right now. The media will always concentrate on the worse stuff but the vast majority of the protesters were universally accepted by London radio as being peaceful and within the law.
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True they were indeed.
However they should find an open space to perform in, not disrupt and intimidate.
Vandalism was rife not just the few.
Violence was the few.
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That sounds pretty fair.
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HT : SCOTLAND 1-0 ICELAND and they (Iceland) knackered Christie's Hospital. >:( >:( >:(
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This is a strange debate for a football forum, but just a thought to add to it. I was once told that there has only been one TRUE communist and that was Jesus Christ. Think about it, that could just be true.....................I wonder.
Strange it may be, but i used to get into long political debates on another football forum i posted on.
I've heard Jesus linked to communism, and there is some merit in it. Although i believe there have been other true communists. I'd consider Che Guevara to have been one, as he devoted his free time and life to the cause, when he could have easily taken an easy government job.
Interesting SW, do you consider the Daily Express to be the most right-wing paper? I'd always thought it was the Mail, although that may because of its history.
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This is a strange debate for a football forum, but just a thought to add to it. I was once told that there has only been one TRUE communist and that was Jesus Christ. Think about it, that could just be true.....................I wonder.
Strange it may be, but i used to get into long political debates on another football forum i posted on.
I've heard Jesus linked to communism, and there is some merit in it. Although i believe there have been other true communists. I'd consider Che Guevara to have been one, as he devoted his free time and life to the cause, when he could have easily taken an easy government job.
Interesting SW, do you consider the Daily Express to be the most right-wing paper? I'd always thought it was the Mail, although that may because of its history.
Historically the mouth piece of the conservatives. Especially in the post war period when Beaverbrook (sp?) owned/edited/had so much influence on it.
And i wasnt having a go at you about communism working earlier. Was more of a rhetorical question. :)
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Both of them are a total waste of ink and paper.
If we didn't fell the trees pulped to produce the paper the Mail and Express are printed on we'd be doing the world two huge favours - one environmental and the other one of taste
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Thanks for that, I've just associated it with Princess Diana previously. The Mail was supporting the Mosley and the fascists in the 1930s i remember.
I know, i found it interesting to talk about, goodwin for the debate and education :)
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No mate but as my parents used to read it I realised there couldn't be one worse. They "upgraded" to The Mail, which I consider slightly less offensive.
I struggle with all my heart to understand how a family who fought to get a decent life through the industrial revolution/ migration from Ireland and Lancashire into central Manchester slums only escaping via slum clearance to a "new" world in Wythenshawe then Sale Moor can consider themselves Tories. You really shouldn't forget where you come from.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the new chav "give it me" society, but the old days were where real people had real values. Recently, on the issue of the 1901 census you see how people with nothing at all tried, managed and looked out for one another, even if 10 lived in 3 rooms. My forebears.
I know my roots, accept them and understand how people feel who have not got life on a plate.
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in the second half of 2007 the Daily Express gave a large amount of coverage to the missing child Madeleine McCann. From August 3, 2007, the Express dedicated at least part of the next 100 front pages to Madeleine in a run that lasted until November 10, 2007.
blimey
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HT : SCOTLAND 1-0 ICELAND and they (Iceland) knackered Christie's Hospital. >:( >:( >:(
GET IN, 2-1 SCOTLAND. Now "keep em out".
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I spend a lot of time in Bulgaria so i know about Communism.
The good points
There was almost no crime
Everyone was guaranteed a job
Every family owned a property
Nobody ever had money problems
Everyone got free healthcare
Prices were dirt cheap
The bad points
Shops were very poorly stocked
Anything from the west was banned
People were not allowed to leave the country, except to go to another communist country
They were not even allowed to visit another city without written permission
Anyone who disagreed with the government mysteriously disappeared
Punishment was very severe even for silly things
Summary
People were brainwashed into believing they were living in paradise. They believed the Communists were protecting them from the evil USA and Britain. Anyone who lived by the rules had an easy life but they were living in near poverty, although they didn't realise it because everyone else was in the same situation, except the chosen few who were party members and lived in luxury. Majority of old people say they preferred Communism because they always had enough to eat, they had a home and electric was supplied by Russia for almost nothing. Now they have to survive on a pension of about £70 a month.
My Opinion
Communism, Facism, Democracy or whatever you want to call the system it still comes down to people trying to control other people. As Billy Connelly once said, anyone who wants to be a politician should not be allowed to do so.
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I spend a lot of time in Bulgaria so i know about Communism.
The good points
There was almost no crime
Everyone was guaranteed a job
Every family owned a property
Nobody ever had money problems
Everyone got free healthcare
Prices were dirt cheap
The bad points
Shops were very poorly stocked
Anything from the west was banned
People were not allowed to leave the country, except to go to another communist country
They were not even allowed to visit another city without written permission
Anyone who disagreed with the government mysteriously disappeared
Punishment was very severe even for silly things
Summary
People were brainwashed into believing they were living in paradise. They believed the Communists were protecting them from the evil USA and Britain. Anyone who lived by the rules had an easy life but they were living in near poverty, although they didn't realise it because everyone else was in the same situation, except the chosen few who were party members and lived in luxury. Majority of old people say they preferred Communism because they always had enough to eat, they had a home and electric was supplied by Russia for almost nothing. Now they have to survive on a pension of about £70 a month.
My Opinion
Communism, Facism, Democracy or whatever you want to call the system it still comes down to people trying to control other people. As Billy Connelly once said, anyone who wants to be a politician should not be allowed to do so.
Not real communism that baldrick m'man. Communism = poverty for all.
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Thanks for that, I've just associated it with Princess Diana previously. The Mail was supporting the Mosley and the fascists in the 1930s i remember.
I know, i found it interesting to talk about, goodwin for the debate and education :)
Returned. I love debating and the like. :)
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So Mike
Is your observation that Communism is poverty for all based upon experience (gives it some credibility), academic study (room for debate) or Political Dogma (get a suscription to the Mail, The Express and the Spectator)?
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As i've said before, communism does not work as it can not be implemented properly due to exisiting political restraints, human nature and, especially in britain, a lack of extremist support. Dont know what you're getting at with the whole experience thing. I have never lived in an attempted communist country. I have studied communism at schoo in some depthl. History and Politics A levels make sure of that. And i dont get a subscription to any papers although i read a wide variety of papers every day. (Guardian, Telegraph, Times mainly although i read the metro on the bus and flick over the sports pages in the mirror, sun while i'm in the cafe in the morning.) Basically i read anything and everything so can't say my viewpoint is influenced by that really. It is mainly based on hard fact and analysis of history.
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didnt bother reading most of this thread as my biggoted mind is already made up.
they are a bunch of pot smoking , dragon chasing, dole scrounging, commies who should be shot give them a decent steak dinner (rare)
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No mate but as my parents used to read it I realised there couldn't be one worse. They "upgraded" to The Mail, which I consider slightly less offensive.
I struggle with all my heart to understand how a family who fought to get a decent life through the industrial revolution/ migration from Ireland and Lancashire into central Manchester slums only escaping via slum clearance to a "new" world in Wythenshawe then Sale Moor can consider themselves Tories. You really shouldn't forget where you come from.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the new chav "give it me" society, but the old days were where real people had real values. Recently, on the issue of the 1901 census you see how people with nothing at all tried, managed and looked out for one another, even if 10 lived in 3 rooms. My forebears.
I know my roots, accept them and understand how people feel who have not got life on a plate.
I think Tories stand for giving a person the opportunity to work hard to better themselves whereas Socialism simply lets the state pay for you to stay in the Manchester slums, Wythenshaw etc.
Walking through Edinburgh the other week when J's mum was working towards world domination there was the usual group of people selling Socialist Worker and asking for petitions to be signed.....I think I upset one of them when I pointed to Jennifer and told him w called her Margaret after Mrs T.
I then ran!
Churchill said "Ohhhhh Yes!"
The other Churchill said that democracy is not very good, but its the best system we have.
Orwell said "All are equal, but some are more equal than others"
That is why democracy (& capitalism through association) works better than a totalitarian state.
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Jut got back from the pub watching the England match with some Ukrainian colleagues who grew up under communism. I've known them a while and they always said to me life was pretty good then although I guess most people have relatively fond memories of their childhoods. However, their insight was effectively that communism was bad, in so much as every one was guaranteed employment and therefore the competition in life was extracted meaning no-one gave a toss about doing any work! That's why anybody visiting Eastern Europe will often notice the sub-standard customer service (particularly from the older generations).
As has previously been said in this thread, the ideology of communism cannot work - in my opinion due to human nature. Capitalism ensures competition which in turn boosts production...
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Jut got back from the pub watching the England match with some Ukrainian colleagues who grew up under communism. I've known them a while and they always said to me life was pretty good then although I guess most people have relatively fond memories of their childhoods. However, their insight was effectively that communism was bad, in so much as every one was guaranteed employment and therefore the competition in life was extracted meaning no-one gave a toss about doing any work! That's why anybody visiting Eastern Europe will often notice the sub-standard customer service (particularly from the older generations).
As has previously been said in this thread, the ideology of communism cannot work - in my opinion due to human nature. Capitalism ensures competition which in turn boosts production...
A political comparison to evolution - survival of the fittest - and provides survival of the civilisation.
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i love a good politial debate, reading this thread has been quite insightful into how people on this fourm think (when not talking football).
as for the debate i tend to agree with mike, that in my years at school and my A Levels (studying history and the rusian revolution / cold war) i just dnt see communism as practcal and it just doesn't work in practice. there will always be people who want more or knw how to manipulate a system to get more ( i mean as baldrick says in bulgaria communist party members live in luxary unlike the rest - kind of a do as i say not as i do type philosophy. On paper it's a great idea and the book Animal farm is a great insight into the ideal but eventually shows how it doesn't work (how many countrys who went communist during the last centry still have the system in it's true form?)
and i agree socialism in action does tend to keep peole where they are, just in wythenshawe alone you can find people who live there who lives within a five mile radious in the same social situation from birth till death, never striving for more probably because when those with the drive to do so try they get told they crnt because of where there from. This i know for a FACT as when i tell people who have never met me before that i am from wythenhawe i am imeadiaty put down in there minds due to a stereotype that stems from the policy of getting for nothing that people live off in these areas. i mean if the state gives you a house, money, benifits, free health care / dentist care whats there to try and work for? so people just coast through life.
just my view like, hope it sounds like i mean it too :-\
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Reading this thread makes me wish I had listened more at school!
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and i agree socialism in action does tend to keep peole where they are, just in wythenshawe alone you can find people who live there who lives within a five mile radious in the same social situation from birth till death, never striving for more probably because when those with the drive to do so try they get told they crnt because of where there from. This i know for a FACT as when i tell people who have never met me before that i am from wythenhawe i am imeadiaty put down in there minds due to a stereotype that stems from the policy of getting for nothing that people live off in these areas. i mean if the state gives you a house, money, benifits, free health care / dentist care whats there to try and work for? so people just coast through life.
Could it not be argued however that, in certain cases, this failure or reluctance to move is not ac=tually a failure or reluctance but an inability caused by the preconceptions of others about the residents of a certain area?
It is interesting that this debate has filtered down, largely to a compare, contrast, evaluate exercise on Capitalism versus Communism with very little mention or evaluation of the bits in between and some very polarised views being expounded.
Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view
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It is interesting that this debate has filtered down, largely to a compare, contrast, evaluate exercise on Capitalism versus Communism with very little mention or evaluation of the bits in between and some very polarised views being expounded.
Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view
Care to expand on that last bit?
I think people are aware there is plenty in between, we just got (pleasantly) dragged into a discussion of communism. Rather than as an alternative in the current situation.
I'm relatively uneducated on economics, but i blame the crisis on executives/bankers taking too many risks to chase those huge bonuses.
I've stopped to buy the Socialist Worker before, partly out of curiousity. I got a couple of 10 min phone calls from the sociaiist candidate for Reading after that, which i guess indicates the lack of support they have.
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soap dodgers the lot of em send them all back to their lay by in somerset
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Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view
and your posts says to me you are very much up your own arse....in my view :)
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Says a lot about the people who contribute to the forum in my view
At least (most of them) know how to use the quote function...
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Correct Mr Hughes.
Wearing the clothes, eating the food blah blah blah.
I love a protestor who doesn't have a viable alternative, should we go back to the fuedal sytem? Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
I'd argue that communism has never been implemented, not in a major country for any sustained period of time at least. Even the USSR leaders admitted this.
I have my sympathies with the protestors- the bonuses being given in the crisis are infuriating. Years of campaigning have had little effect, so they take a more direct approach; not to say i agree with them, but i understand the frustration.
The majority will have alternatives (though most are radical changes), the thing is that the group is such a mish-mash. Anarchists, socialists, environmentalists, anti-war, anti-globalisation. It's not a choice of the free market or communism.
I think the Chinese might have something to say about this.
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What I meant was that people on this forum have strongly held views - many things are very much black and white with very few shades of grey in evidence.
It was in no way any form of criticism
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If only the Americans had voted for Ron Paul.
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If only the Americans had voted for Ron Paul.
Don't even get me started on Obama... ;D ;)
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Sport, then politics.....can we go for religion next?
There is no perfect model, but to disregard socialism as a movement would be wrong I feel. Without it there would have been no health service, there would have been no unions (now whilst some may think that would be a good thing, the principles upon which they were originally formed were sound, namely to protect the rights of workers from exploitation and abuse).
As others have stated, there can be no utopian ideal of every man being equal as human nature is such that it can never happen.
As for striving for something better, not everybody wants something better badly enough to do so. Some people are happy to live in the same area all of their lives and never try and break away from that. Just as some want to travel and attempt to broaden their horizons. Who is to say which is the correct way? Surely, that is an individual choice? The fact of that matter is that even if everyone wanted to become a business tycoon (for example) it would not be physically possible.
There are some from the upper echelons of society who would look down upon the working classes, just as there are some from the working classes who would despise those from the upper echelons. Neither are right, but we can sit and debate all we like, human nature will never change whilst we have holes in our arses.
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Correct Mr Hughes.
Wearing the clothes, eating the food blah blah blah.
I love a protestor who doesn't have a viable alternative, should we go back to the fuedal sytem? Try Communism, oh no that didn't work did it....
I'd argue that communism has never been implemented, not in a major country for any sustained period of time at least. Even the USSR leaders admitted this.
I have my sympathies with the protestors- the bonuses being given in the crisis are infuriating. Years of campaigning have had little effect, so they take a more direct approach; not to say i agree with them, but i understand the frustration.
The majority will have alternatives (though most are radical changes), the thing is that the group is such a mish-mash. Anarchists, socialists, environmentalists, anti-war, anti-globalisation. It's not a choice of the free market or communism.
I think the Chinese might have something to say about this.
But capitalism is now very prominent in China now!
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However true capitalists would not be bailing out the banks or the motor industry. The interferance will make matters worse according to strict moneterism.
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However true capitalists would not be bailing out the banks or the motor industry. The interferance will make matters worse according to strict moneterism.
The labour party isn't truly capitalist. The social democrats of the labour party accept that we are living in a capitalist society and dont expect to change the fundamental values of it. Rather they hope to introduce reform which redistributes sources in a way to attempt to help the majority over the few. This is more in the equality of opportunity thought than the equality of outcome. Key Social Democrats? Anthony Charles Lynton Blair and Peter Benjamin Mandelson.
As you say, they wouldnt be bailing out the banks, a fundamental value in Free Enterprise.
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As per a quote in the Mail today:
Why do people take an instant dislike to Peter Mandelson?
It saves time that way!
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in the city today i felt like smashing the system but i was late for a meeting so couldn't quite manage it. Hopefully the swampy monsters will head home and leave us capitalists to it next week.
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in the city today i felt like smashing the system but i was late for a meeting so couldn't quite manage it. Hopefully the swampy monsters will head home and leave us capitalists to it next week.
We know where you live.
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This thread was a really interesting read. Almost unbelievably, I'm actually going to agree with AltyTunnelSteward. People appear to have very strong views one way or t'other...
Politics is a very complex business, not only are there economic ideals of left/right, but also liberal ideals of liberty/authoriatarianism. Wherever 'communism' has been implemented it has been in an authoritarian way. Whilst Marxists would argue that means communism was corrupted, I wouuld make the point that the only way you could bring about communism is by authoritarianism, and therein lies its weakness.
Personally I favour a mixed economy along the lines of Scandinavia. Big investment in health and education (proper investment, not just raising teachers' salaries and hoping that'll help kids do well in their SATS), but with incentives still there for businesses and workers (i.e. more staggering in the income tax brackets, but with a top rate no higher than 50%).
As far as I'm concerned, and this is obviously completely biased, we're now in a situation where we're living 'Thatcher's Dream' and it's rubbish. Mass privatisation = Greater Competition = Higher Standards. What a load of bollocks that turned out to be. Public transport is worse, hospitals aren't clean because private companies can't be arsed to clean them properly, people don't get their medication delivered on time because that NHS duty has been contracted out etc etc.
Sold off the family silver...
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Public transport is worse...
Sold off the family silver...
Is this actually true?
This is a genuine question as I have no first hand knowledge of transport pre-privatization.
Take the railways for example, was British Rail genuinely better in terms of price/service/punctuality/clenliness etc than the service that's provided now?
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My main gripe with public transport is the prices. The same ticket on different days can see a 200% price change...why?? Punctuality, hit and miss. I've been through phases where trains are always on time, then three out of my next four journeys I'm left hanging around due to delays.
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Now that public transport is run by private companies with profit their prime driver you find that huge areas of the Country no longer have any public transport as the routes are 'uneconimical' i.e. The Company cannot make any profit whilst other routes are so overfilled that gridlock ensues.
You may recall the chaos in central Manchester not long back when Mosley Street, Piccadilly and the surrounding Streets were impassible due to stop blocking and in fact two Companies had their Operating Licenses withdrawn.
I walk up Oxford Road in a morning from the BBC to the University, making the reverse journey in the evening and it is not unusual to see the entire inside lane of Oxford Road, both ways completely filled with Buses, nose to tail, all competing for what is obviously a profitable route.
If Transport were re-regulated like it is in London (there aren't many things about London I like but the public transport is one) it would be possible to have efficient, economical and punctual transport from an integrated system rather than the farce which we currently endure.
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scandanavia tax about 50%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
read the facts oslo most expensive place in the world . beer 82 quid a pint
lots of blond women
clean
good fishing nearly everyone spoeaks english better than i do
hang on a minute
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The country with the most expensive beer prices is United Arab Emirates. It is not known if they have any blonde women because they completely cover them with a sheet and cut out little slits so you can only see their eyes. Public shagging is not encouraged and there is no scrumpy.
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I totally agree with Alty tunnel steward on the transport issue. Proper public investment and regulation/integration is in my book the only way to get a decent service. For such a large connurbation Manchester's transport, with all the different private operators, is a farce, and totally frustrating. Compare Manc to any similar sized city on the continent (Lyon, Munich, Hamburg etc.) - there's no comparison. These cities made the investments in the 50s, 60s, 70s in public infrastructure - and continue to do so- (all have an underground for example). The transport systems there run on a subsidy, but what is the net result? a) greater ridership b) resonable prices c) frequent & decent service, not just on the most profitable routes, often 24h d) generally less stress and better quality of life for everyone. Germany and France show you don't need to have Scandinavia-style taxes (on alcohol, among other things; much cheaper in Germany than in the UK) to get the best of both worlds.
The German model ('Social market economy') provides long-term stability, and not just for the transport sector.
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I can remember the public transport system in Vienna. From memory I paid for one ticket that allowed a given amount of journeys on any of the public transport systems: bus, underground, train or tram. The Manchester tram system is recognised as being quite decent, but what many people seem to have forgotten is that most of the track simply replacede a rail system. With the exception of the city centre, no extra miles of public transport!
It was a replacement rather than an improvement.
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I can remember the public transport system in Vienna. From memory I paid for one ticket that allowed a given amount of journeys on any of the public transport systems: bus, underground, train or tram. The Manchester tram system is recognised as being quite decent, but what many people seem to have forgotten is that most of the track simply replacede a rail system. With the exception of the city centre, no extra miles of public transport!
It was a replacement rather than an improvement.
The fares on trams are completely screwed up. A return ticket from Altrincham to Westhoughton is cheaper than a return from Timperley to Manchester Victoria.