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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: DAB @ ALTY on November 22, 2011, 09:45:03 AM
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I have been having a serious think about how Stalybridge are able to be a full time outfit with gates of around 400/500 and now looking like real promotion contenders.They employ youngsters as full time professional footballers on very modest wages who are obviously motivated by their situation,it also brings a lot of young talent into a job.We, as a part time non-league outfit do not seem to able to attract those players anymore who want to play for the shirt.I think if we want to get back as a successful club at Alty,then we have got to start looking at new options and looking to go down new pastures.I cannot see us in our location as being able to ever attract those 1700 gates of some years ago,so surely we have to look at new ideas of how we can be that big non league club again,all be it with modest resources.Looking through alot of the comments on this forum at the moment,we don't seem to have many players in our current squad whom people seem to think are worthy of playing in an Alty shirt,so maybe now is the time to have a serious look at the alternatives.I remember Hughesy going on about this full time situation at the end of last season and to be honest,a few people around the club just laughed at his suggestions but I bet those same people are quite envious of what is being achieved at Stalybridge at the moment.Over the last few years we have seen big changes at non-league levels,so maybe it is now time to see some big changes at Altrincham Football Club, if as I'm sure is all fans aims to see us in the running to be a successful club once again.
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Top post, i agree with most of what you say, it would be hard theres no doubt about it but a bit of change, risk and ambition is whats needed and Stalybridge are proof that it can be done.
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I don't think we can take half a seasn at Stalybridge as proof that full-time is the way to go. Fair enough, I didn't think it could work at all and (assuming they're financially okay) I'm willing to accept I was probably wrong about that. But let's take another example. Southport. Part-time (albeit three training sessions per week - not two) and flying in the Conference National. Newport and Lincoln are full-time but absolutely awful.
I'm seeing the argument for full-time more and more. When we've got the likes of Flynn who seems not to care about playing the game now that he's got an LFC coaching gig, the prospect of young lads with pace and desire does seem more appealing. But, on the other hand, Damian Reeves and Nicky Clee wouldn't stay with us. Do we really want to chuck talent like that away?
I don't know whether some sort of half-way house is possible? Two mornings and two evenings training per week? The part-timers only come in on the evenings, the young lads on £200 p/w attend every session?
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The issue is how much Stalybridge are actually paying, something I suspect would be impossible to know for sure. If we could go full time on the same wage bill as what we pay now then it is worth looking at.
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I don't think we can take half a seasn at Stalybridge as proof that full-time is the way to go.
Isn't this their second season as full time?
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Totally agree with DAB. Full time with young players is the way forward IF it can done be done on our budget.
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In the far off distant days when Alty were regarded as one of the "Best" non-league teams the part-time option was the only way.
Things have changed ...BSP is now more league3 than non league and BSN (andBSS) are going in that direction.
Although we have always (recently!) lived within our means being part-time must mean that we are destined to stay at this level
Young players willing to be part-time and hope for a scout from a big club to spot them are no more and one of our traditional
sources of revenue from transfers has gone with them.
We will soon have to make a decision....but not yet. full time in BSN is not yet essential but in BSP it soon will be unless we want to yoyo up and down every couple of years
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Isn't this their second season as full time?
Yep, and they didn't trouble the leaders last time round.
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In the far off distant days when Alty were regarded as one of the "Best" non-league teams the part-time option was the only way.
Things have changed ...BSP is now more league3 than non league and BSN (andBSS) are going in that direction.
Although we have always (recently!) lived within our means being part-time must mean that we are destined to stay at this level
Young players willing to be part-time and hope for a scout from a big club to spot them are no more and one of our traditional
sources of revenue from transfers has gone with them.
We will soon have to make a decision....but not yet. full time in BSN is not yet essential but in BSP it soon will be unless we want to yoyo up and down every couple of years
In that case, why are Southport sitting third with almost half the season gone?
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In the far off distant days when Alty were regarded as one of the "Best" non-league teams the part-time option was the only way.
Things have changed ...BSP is now more league3 than non league and BSN (andBSS) are going in that direction.
Although we have always (recently!) lived within our means being part-time must mean that we are destined to stay at this level
Young players willing to be part-time and hope for a scout from a big club to spot them are no more and one of our traditional
sources of revenue from transfers has gone with them.
We will soon have to make a decision....but not yet. full time in BSN is not yet essential but in BSP it soon will be unless we want to yoyo up and down every couple of years
In that case, why are Southport sitting third with almost half the season gone?
Because they have three training sessions a week at Semi-Pro wages, so are essentially full time.
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In that case, why are Southport sitting third with almost half the season gone?
There's a lot more luck in Football than anyone would like to admit, take 24 teams and the odds are in favour one of them is going to dramatically over/under perform (Histon a few years ago, or Newcastle up in the Premiership right now). If they can hold it together and then do it again next season, then we can honestly say it's not luck, you can be part time and compete properly.
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Because they have three training sessions a week at Semi-Pro wages, so are essentially full time.
So if we start training on Weds, we'll have gone full-time? I'm not having that. We're still training far less than full-time clubs and on Tuesday nights many of our players will have been at work all day rather than preparing for the match.
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There's a lot more luck in Football than anyone would like to admit, take 24 teams and the odds are in favour one of them is going to dramatically over/under perform (Histon a few years ago, or Newcastle up in the Premiership right now). If they can hold it together and then do it again next season, then we can honestly say it's not luck, you can be part time and compete properly.
I accept that. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If half a season isn't proof part-time works in the BSP, nor is it proof that full-time in the BSN is the answer.
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So if we start training on Weds, we'll have gone full-time? I'm not having that. We're still training far less than full-time clubs and on Tuesday nights many of our players will have been at work all day rather than preparing for the match.
I think in Southport's case it's got more to do with the fact that they train during the daytime at least once a week, which would not be feasible if you've got players with proper full time jobs. They're not full time pros but neither are they a part time outfit in the traditional sense.
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I just think that with the amount of training we're doing now, as has been said before we'll probably be a 'yo-yo team'! I agree young players paid less with more training sessions seems to be the way to go, a la Histon and Southport.
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As many of you know I stand with DAB and we had this discussion on Saturday and a considerable number of us believe it is the only way forward and we even appealed to Flynny (Brian not our centre back impressionist) to try and pursuade the board to look into it! As Chester progress and FCUM get their ground built then we will be very poor runners-up in attracting the better part-time players as these clubs will clean up by offering higher wages so lets make some viable plans to attract youngsters to the club by making the intention known that we are going full-time next season. There will be loads of lads released by the North West's league teams next summer so lets be right in the mix by being able to offer them the opportunity to stay as full-time footballers......it'll sure beat the dole queue!! The reason for doing it now in BSN is that if we do get promoted (after a couple of years of building) we may stand a chance of staying up......I'd fancy Stalybride to do well......whereas we're not going to see anything other than a big struggle if we go up as a part-time outfit again.
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It's taken Jim Harvey a couple of seasons to bring things to fruition at Stalybridge and we might have to be patient if we decided to bring in younger players on a full time basis. It might mean another year or two in the wilderness before we get back to where we want to be. Having said that, I'm not knocking the idea, just saying it probably wouldn't succeed overnight.
Certainly food for thought.
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That's exactly what we said on Saturday......it won't be overnight success but we'd all rather be watching some young lads having a go than the dross we got and will probably keep getting this season unless the manager can pull some major signings from somewhere. By the way if any one is wondering about the wage level for this approach I believe from an extremely reliable source that Gloucesters number 11 is on 60 quid a week......so there are lads out there who will play for the right reasons!
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In the far off distant days when Alty were regarded as one of the "Best" non-league teams the part-time option was the only way.
Things have changed ...BSP is now more league3 than non league and BSN (andBSS) are going in that direction.
Although we have always (recently!) lived within our means being part-time must mean that we are destined to stay at this level
Young players willing to be part-time and hope for a scout from a big club to spot them are no more and one of our traditional
sources of revenue from transfers has gone with them.
We will soon have to make a decision....but not yet. full time in BSN is not yet essential but in BSP it soon will be unless we want to yoyo up and down every couple of years
In that case, why are Southport sitting third with almost half the season gone?
I don't think we can take half a season at Southport as proof that that model is the way to go.
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I think the proposal could work but it is likely we would need a new manager - lee lives in hull - i also don't think our safety first board would go for it.
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I'm also all for a half way house solutiuon with our best players clee, reeves etc training 2 or3 times a week backed by a promising bank of full time young keen players prepared to take a bit less money for full time football.......I was hoping when we got a new manager that we got an ex pro with good links to Utd/City/Crewe who had this vision.
Problem is with our budget we can only get 3 or 4 quality part time players....it would be as well to back this up with full time youth than part time dross.....in my opinion.....
next time we advertise for a amanger perhaps we should give this as a brief....
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This will become the norm in BSS and BSN in a couple of years in my view. Yes, it would be a long term approach and it's success would depend on having the right manager and being able to attract the best young talent. The clubs youth policy/progress has never been healthier either.
What have we got to lose? It seems part - time teams are doomed in BSP (except the odd team for a year or so when they have some very good players). For me this has GOT to be the plan sooner or later.
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I think at some point it will have to be something we at least try. It might not work but we'll need to find out.
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To a degree I agree what you say, but I am not it is at all about being full time. I do believe it is about passion and being there for the club, I ran the supporters club for many years, everyone was upaid and put money and time into the club. John King and Graham Heathcote had passion and would have died for the club as in a strange way would Gerry Berman, I know how much money he lost for Alty. Until we get a manager with passion then we will not get players.
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To a degree I agree what you say, but I am not it is at all about being full time. I do believe it is about passion and being there for the club, I ran the supporters club for many years, everyone was upaid and put money and time into the club. John King and Graham Heathcote had passion and would have died for the club as in a strange way would Gerry Berman, I know how much money he lost for Alty. Until we get a manager with passion then we will not get players.
Sorry, I don't like to be rude, but this is one of my biggest pet peeves.
Why the f**k does everyone always mention 'passion' when things aren't going well? You've just said Heathcote was passionate, but we started appallingly under him last season. Ken McKenna was extremely passionate, but he couldn't save us.
Is it not more likely that we suffered some terrible luck (Doughty and Kearney suffering career-ending injuries) and didn't have the budget (hence losing Senior and Young) to compete, coupled with the signing of some players who simply weren't good enough.
Likewise, I don't think Sinnott's passion levels have anything to do with why we're struggling. It's much more likely that some of the squad he inherited weren't good enough and it's taking the squad a while to adjust his preferred tactics. Maybe some of his signings have been sh*t, but I think we need to wait beyond November of his first season to start slagging the man off.
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To a degree I agree what you say, but I am not it is at all about being full time. I do believe it is about passion and being there for the club, I ran the supporters club for many years, everyone was upaid and put money and time into the club. John King and Graham Heathcote had passion and would have died for the club as in a strange way would Gerry Berman, I know how much money he lost for Alty. Until we get a manager with passion then we will not get players.
I hear what you're saying about passion for the club and the people you have named above are certainly people who have laid it on the line for Altrincham FC time and time again. However, we cannot keep revisiting the same names forever and a day; at some point new faces have got to come in and stamp their mark on our club and write a new chapter in the club's history. From your post I assume you think our current manager lacks passion? (Please correct me if I am wrong). What leads you to this conclusion? Is it because he isn't the most vocal manager during games? Not all managers go about their business in this way, instead preferring a more calculated approach. Do we know what he's like in training or in the dressing room? He might give the players both barrels in a more private environment for all we know.
A lot of the criticism of Lee Sinnott is unwarranted but some is also valid. I tend to think back to Graham Heathcote's first year or two in charge between 2002 and 2004. During that time we just about survived in the Unibond League and then just about scraped into Conference North. It was only in his second full season that things clicked and we started really doing the business on the pitch. Hence, managers need time to make their mark on a club. Very rarely does it all click into place straight away.
Let's not be too quick to write people off. There are things which badly need sorting out at present but I think Lee Sinnott recognises that every bit as much as we do.
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To a degree I agree what you say, but I am not it is at all about being full time. I do believe it is about passion and being there for the club, I ran the supporters club for many years, everyone was upaid and put money and time into the club. John King and Graham Heathcote had passion and would have died for the club as in a strange way would Gerry Berman, I know how much money he lost for Alty. Until we get a manager with passion then we will not get players.
Are you saying that the people involved now - and I mean across the club from boardroom through to terraces - don't have the Passion that king, berman and heathcote had?
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Yet another supporter who can't let go of the past. Yes King, Heathcote and Berman gave a lot to the club during their tenures but they all left leaving the club in a mess , individually- neither left with their head held particularly high.
There seems to be a lot of negativity about Lee Sinnott creeping in at the moment a lot of which I believe is unwarranted, the guy can see whats wrong and is trying to get in reinforcements within a tightly constrained budget.
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Gerry Berman, I know how much money he lost for Alty
So does everyone else who fundraised for the following ten years....
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One of the things Lee Sinnott promised us when he came was that he would put a smile back on our faces.
I am sure those of you that were at the 6-1s and witness to our attacking prowess were smiling. I know I was when I watched the Youtube highlights.
Its a balance after all - I remember a Peanuts cartoon where Charlie Brown was lying on his back having lost another baseball game. "Never mind Charlie Brown, you win some you lose some"
"That would be nice" he replies
That was us last season. This season we do win some (and how) but have not solved all of the problems of last year. And we are budget constrained for this season - so next season we will have more funds to strengthen and a manager who would have been in place for a season.
I am quite prepared to write this season off as rebuilding - for us to come screaming out of the traps next season
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To a degree I agree what you say, but I am not it is at all about being full time. I do believe it is about passion and being there for the club, I ran the supporters club for many years, everyone was upaid and put money and time into the club. John King and Graham Heathcote had passion and would have died for the club as in a strange way would Gerry Berman, I know how much money he lost for Alty. Until we get a manager with passion then we will not get players.
Sorry but you seem to be confusing passion with ability. Being passionate helps but its useless without ability and quality and thats what Sinnott knows only too well that we need. If you cant see that youre blind :o
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To a degree I agree what you say, but I am not it is at all about being full time. I do believe it is about passion and being there for the club, I ran the supporters club for many years, everyone was upaid and put money and time into the club. John King and Graham Heathcote had passion and would have died for the club as in a strange way would Gerry Berman, I know how much money he lost for Alty. Until we get a manager with passion then we will not get players.
The club nearly died because of Gerry Berman.
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It just gets worse.
Where the hell have you been since 1995 Ginrail? What are you trying to achieve here?
Just thought you'd pop up and stir some sh*t?
Do you know just how many people work unpaid for the club at the moment?
And don't start me off on Gerry Berman..every penny he lost was through feeding his own ego and it nearly ended 100 years of the club.
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The purpose of posting the titled topic was not to have a go at the management or the players but to try and get a positive reaction from our fanbase as to what they would like to see change for the club to move forward and be successful once again.Some interesting replies but some that have me a little confused,at some stage there has to be changes at football clubs,some people don't like change but in the present climate surely if there are other means of bringing back the good days,then they have to be looked at.As for the passion thing,then that is the very reason for posting the topic,I happen to be very passionate about my club.
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The ideal situaton for me would be to buy or rent the manor farm site where Stockport currently train. It cannot be built on so is not a very expensive price.The whole club could be run out of there from training to ladies teams to juniors.There is a social club (currently unused) that has thousands of homes surrounding it with no pub within walking distance.It has a canteen, a gym, treatment tooms,offices and has living accommodation.Stockport won't be staying there.And if we could raise the money through grants and other serious fund-raising it would be the making of the club.We could then go full time in the stalybridge model, and make money through the social club and by hiring out the pitches etc It sounds pie in the sky but it should be given serious consideration, obviously the ground would stay where it is, but the rest of the club could be run from there.A full social club on a Sunday much like timperley cricket club with drinkers and those there playing/ watching the multiple games taking place on the numerous pitches
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The ideal situaton for me would be to buy or rent the manor farm site where Stockport currently train. It cannot be built on so is not a very expensive price.The whole club could be run out of there from training to ladies teams to juniors.There is a social club (currently unused) that has thousands of homes surrounding it with no pub within walking distance.It has a canteen, a gym, treatment tooms,offices and has living accommodation.Stockport won't be staying there.And if we could raise the money through grants and other serious fund-raising it would be the making of the club.We could then go full time in the stalybridge model, and make money through the social club and by hiring out the pitches etc It sounds pie in the sky but it should be given serious consideration, obviously the ground would stay where it is, but the rest of the club could be run from there.A full social club on a Sunday much like timperley cricket club with drinkers and those there playing/ watching the multiple games taking place on the numerous pitches
A little bird told me we already have something in the pipeline for Manor Farm. This bird could be the bullsh*t birt indigenous to macclesfied however they are normally someone of impeccable honesty
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The ideal situaton for me would be to buy or rent the manor farm site where Stockport currently train. It cannot be built on so is not a very expensive price.The whole club could be run out of there from training to ladies teams to juniors.There is a social club (currently unused) that has thousands of homes surrounding it with no pub within walking distance.It has a canteen, a gym, treatment tooms,offices and has living accommodation.Stockport won't be staying there.And if we could raise the money through grants and other serious fund-raising it would be the making of the club.We could then go full time in the stalybridge model, and make money through the social club and by hiring out the pitches etc It sounds pie in the sky but it should be given serious consideration, obviously the ground would stay where it is, but the rest of the club could be run from there.A full social club on a Sunday much like timperley cricket club with drinkers and those there playing/ watching the multiple games taking place on the numerous pitches
A little bird told me we already have something in the pipeline for Manor Farm. This bird could be the bullsh*t birt indigenous to macclesfied however they are normally someone of impeccable honesty
That's very interesting, and would be fantastic if true.It might mean saddling the club with a morgage to pay for a portion towards the purchase but I firmly believe it would be the making of the club, from a home base point if view for the whole club and from a money making point of view, if the social club was marketed correctly it could be a very busy concern.With the broomwood and the huge number of new builds nearby with nowhere to drink
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Manor? Is that clay lane/ British airways club?
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Really interesting thread, some great opinions on both sides.
Have Stalybridge had to deal with interest from above in their players?
With them being young, how are tribunals / transfer fees set up at this level?
Only asking as I've got something nagging from a murky recess in my mind that conference and below can get shafted - I'm not 100% sure though.
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Manor? Is that clay lane/ British airways club?
No, that BA club closed a few years ago.
The Manor Farm one is actually at the bottom of Rideway road, & not on clay lane as most people think.
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The Silver Wings (BA club) site is currently being turned into a new gym. My brother is working there at the moment.
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The Silver Wings (BA club) site is currently being turned into a new gym. My brother is working there at the moment.
We knew it as the BEA club in the late 60's....went many a Saturday night although nothing to do with the airline.
Highlight was seeing the most brilliant ( and filthy ) comedy double act ever, who were also at the Robin club a few weeks later
They were known as Sid & Eddie....a while later they cleaned up a bit, changed their name to Little & Large and then cleaned up bigtime on TV
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The ideal situaton for me would be to buy or rent the manor farm site where Stockport currently train. It cannot be built on so is not a very expensive price.The whole club could be run out of there from training to ladies teams to juniors.There is a social club (currently unused) that has thousands of homes surrounding it with no pub within walking distance.It has a canteen, a gym, treatment tooms,offices and has living accommodation.Stockport won't be staying there.And if we could raise the money through grants and other serious fund-raising it would be the making of the club.We could then go full time in the stalybridge model, and make money through the social club and by hiring out the pitches etc It sounds pie in the sky but it should be given serious consideration, obviously the ground would stay where it is, but the rest of the club could be run from there.A full social club on a Sunday much like timperley cricket club with drinkers and those there playing/ watching the multiple games taking place on the numerous pitches
Although unlikely to benefit from this ;) I think it is a brilliant idea and the way to go.
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The ideal situaton for me would be to buy or rent the manor farm site where Stockport currently train. It cannot be built on so is not a very expensive price.The whole club could be run out of there from training to ladies teams to juniors.There is a social club (currently unused) that has thousands of homes surrounding it with no pub within walking distance.It has a canteen, a gym, treatment tooms,offices and has living accommodation.Stockport won't be staying there.And if we could raise the money through grants and other serious fund-raising it would be the making of the club.We could then go full time in the stalybridge model, and make money through the social club and by hiring out the pitches etc It sounds pie in the sky but it should be given serious consideration, obviously the ground would stay where it is, but the rest of the club could be run from there.A full social club on a Sunday much like timperley cricket club with drinkers and those there playing/ watching the multiple games taking place on the numerous pitches
A little bird told me we already have something in the pipeline for Manor Farm. This bird could be the bullsh*t birt indigenous to macclesfied however they are normally someone of impeccable honesty
That's very interesting, and would be fantastic if true.It might mean saddling the club with a morgage to pay for a portion towards the purchase but I firmly believe it would be the making of the club, from a home base point if view for the whole club and from a money making point of view, if the social club was marketed correctly it could be a very busy concern.With the broomwood and the huge number of new builds nearby with nowhere to drink
And conveniently located near your house..... :D
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The first 5 months of last season we were super inconsistant brilliant one game truly awful the next. then after the winter break we really turned it round losing 3 league games from January onwards, 4 till this date. patience and time is needed for it.
we had some interest gateshead hat a 5 figure sum rejected for Phil Marsh last jan and Jennings has had some interest in him
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beware of aguy dressd as oliver cromwell , he has a mean left hook,
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Has DAB been talking to Harrogate?
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Has DAB been talking to Harrogate?
It will be interesting to see if it works for Harrogate but" honestly I haven't said a word",it is the Alty board who I would like to see talking but having spoke to a couple of directors in the past relating to this,I have my doults that we would ever consider going down the full time route.