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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: Hugh on December 03, 2008, 04:23:42 AM
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Having watched the game I'm not convinced he got an awful lot wrong. And too bad if he did, in my opinion it's a cop out ot blame the ref, he just doe his job to the best of his ability. Of course some decisions can have a big effect on matches like on Saturday but he can only give what he sees, and the more abuse refs get, the more we'll have a shortage of offiicials. And fair play to Phil for trying to clarify refereeing decisions.
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NB I'm not just being contentious, I genuinely believe that going ott with refs is helping noone, I'm not really that bothered if people agree or not.
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I have been a supporter of Alty home and away since the mid 70's and have seen many ref's who have been good bad and indifferent. I have to say that the performance of the Rushden ref was one of the most inept and incompetent performances in all that time. I am not one of those people who blame the ref if we loose even though I am Alty through and through. I have been taking my lad and his friends for over 4 years now and tell then never to boo the referee off the pitch as they do a hard job. No such advice this time. I told them to boo him off to their hearts content as even a group of 11 year old kids could see that he had ruined the game without any justification. Were you watching the same game as the rest of us ?
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http://archive.thenorthernecho.co.uk/2007/6/2/235583.html
It would appear "one of the top officials in the country" depending on who you speak to...
Wasn't at the match, but the last sentence of the above reports sounds typical!
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Nobody can beat Trelford Mills for sheer whistle happy, card frenzied, publicity seeking ineptitude.
He scarred my childhood.
No other refs come close to the cheif officiating clown green showman.
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http://archive.thenorthernecho.co.uk/2007/6/2/235583.html
It would appear "one of the top officials in the country" depending on who you speak to...
Wasn't at the match, but the last sentence of the above reports sounds typical!
Graham Poll was supposed to be the best referee in the country dring the world cup 2006, and he f**ked it up !!
So I would take that report with a pinch of salt. He was totally out of his depth on Saturday.
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I wasn't at the game to see his performance, but i generally agree that they get too much criticism. Maybe it's the creation of a siege mentality (works for Ferguson), but i find it a little worrying that some seem to see every other referee as not just incompetent, but biased against us.
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I think they'd be respected much more if they simply owned up to mistakes, rather acting as stubborn and unapproachable as they do.
I've played in a few games this season so far, where the referee has made a hash, and at the next suitable stoppage in play, has made it abundantly clear that he made an error...and apologised...then continued with the game. What kind of moron could then berate a referee that obviously has the players interests at heart?
Pros and cons to this i'm sure...but most importantly, I think we need to recognise the need for an international signal for I've cocked it up, I apologise - but opposing fans rest assured I wont be "owing them one"! I think a quick sprint to the centre circle, with a 3 second "running man" should suffice. ;D
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I have stayed out of any real debate on this matter since Saturday so as not to be accused of blind pro referee bias etc. and also as a consequence of comments made to me on Saturday.
As I have indicated I didn't see either challenge on Saturday but have since spoken to somebody who did, an experienced former Level 2 Referee. In his view the Sending off was marginal - worse than a yellow card but maybe not worthy of a red ( the sort of challenge that would warrant an Orange card were that possible) He said that a significant contributor may have been the angle Mr Joyce saw the challenge from and the way he percieved Shaun having gone into the challenge (what was his iintent I assume).
The R& D player's Yellow was a text book yellow card being reckless rather than likely to endanger an opponent (Not my assessment I reiterate)
As for Saturdays Ref being the worst seen I would like to remain those experienced enough of the performance of a Referee from Oldham by the name of Gary Shaw who sent off 3 Alty players in one home match against, I believe Slough (Mr Cult may be able to confirm this)
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I have stayed out of any real debate on this matter since Saturday so as not to be accused of blind pro referee bias etc. and also as a consequence of comments made to me on Saturday.
As I have indicated I didn't see either challenge on Saturday but have since spoken to somebody who did, an experienced former Level 2 Referee. In his view the Sending off was marginal - worse than a yellow card but maybe not worthy of a red ( the sort of challenge that would warrant an Orange card were that possible) He said that a significant contributor may have been the angle Mr Joyce saw the challenge from and the way he percieved Shaun having gone into the challenge (what was his iintent I assume).
The R& D player's Yellow was a text book yellow card being reckless rather than likely to endanger an opponent (Not my assessment I reiterate)
As for Saturdays Ref being the worst seen I would like to remain those experienced enough of the performance of a Referee from Oldham by the name of Gary Shaw who sent off 3 Alty players in one home match against, I believe Slough (Mr Cult may be able to confirm this)
Mid 90's ? Weren't the players Mick Carmody, Greg Challindor and Barry Butler ? They also had a player sent off and had a penalty saved... ?
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I have stayed out of any real debate on this matter since Saturday so as not to be accused of blind pro referee bias etc. and also as a consequence of comments made to me on Saturday.
As I have indicated I didn't see either challenge on Saturday but have since spoken to somebody who did, an experienced former Level 2 Referee. In his view the Sending off was marginal - worse than a yellow card but maybe not worthy of a red ( the sort of challenge that would warrant an Orange card were that possible) He said that a significant contributor may have been the angle Mr Joyce saw the challenge from and the way he percieved Shaun having gone into the challenge (what was his iintent I assume).
The R& D player's Yellow was a text book yellow card being reckless rather than likely to endanger an opponent (Not my assessment I reiterate)
As for Saturdays Ref being the worst seen I would like to remain those experienced enough of the performance of a Referee from Oldham by the name of Gary Shaw who sent off 3 Alty players in one home match against, I believe Slough (Mr Cult may be able to confirm this)
Also the salmon like leap and then triple roll of Bolaise, who appeared to have been shot but then miraculously got to his feet as soon as the ref sent Shaun off.
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Having watched the game I'm not convinced he got an awful lot wrong. And too bad if he did, in my opinion it's a cop out ot blame the ref, he just doe his job to the best of his ability. Of course some decisions can have a big effect on matches like on Saturday but he can only give what he sees, and the more abuse refs get, the more we'll have a shortage of offiicials. And fair play to Phil for trying to clarify refereeing decisions.
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Is this a joke Hugh?
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If he'd seen it 'front-on' at close quarters like I did, then it was no more than a yellow at worst. He saw it from behind Sean's back and also reacted to the loud sound made by boots and studs colliding.
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This is hopefully my final word on this subject. I feel the ref got 3 key decisions wrong. I felt it was down to inexperience. My fear is that inexperienced refs are being pushed forward too quickly. I hope he learns from his mistakes and has a better game the next time he visits Alty.
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I have stayed out of any real debate on this matter since Saturday so as not to be accused of blind pro referee bias etc. and also as a consequence of comments made to me on Saturday.
As I have indicated I didn't see either challenge on Saturday but have since spoken to somebody who did, an experienced former Level 2 Referee. In his view the Sending off was marginal - worse than a yellow card but maybe not worthy of a red ( the sort of challenge that would warrant an Orange card were that possible) He said that a significant contributor may have been the angle Mr Joyce saw the challenge from and the way he percieved Shaun having gone into the challenge (what was his iintent I assume).
The R& D player's Yellow was a text book yellow card being reckless rather than likely to endanger an opponent (Not my assessment I reiterate)
As for Saturdays Ref being the worst seen I would like to remain those experienced enough of the performance of a Referee from Oldham by the name of Gary Shaw who sent off 3 Alty players in one home match against, I believe Slough (Mr Cult may be able to confirm this)
is he working off the ian hulme theory? robbie left the field wth a neck injury (so must have been a bad collision to cause that) as for there player he was in more danger by the way he was throwing himself around on the floor.
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Incidentally, both times this season we've had a full back sent off we've gone on to lose 0-4.
Much like Threesome getting sent off for handball at Kiddy in the Trophy and us getting whupped 0-5 cos of it.
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I have stayed out of any real debate on this matter since Saturday so as not to be accused of blind pro referee bias etc. and also as a consequence of comments made to me on Saturday.
As I have indicated I didn't see either challenge on Saturday but have since spoken to somebody who did, an experienced former Level 2 Referee. In his view the Sending off was marginal - worse than a yellow card but maybe not worthy of a red ( the sort of challenge that would warrant an Orange card were that possible) He said that a significant contributor may have been the angle Mr Joyce saw the challenge from and the way he percieved Shaun having gone into the challenge (what was his iintent I assume).
The R& D player's Yellow was a text book yellow card being reckless rather than likely to endanger an opponent (Not my assessment I reiterate)
As for Saturdays Ref being the worst seen I would like to remain those experienced enough of the performance of a Referee from Oldham by the name of Gary Shaw who sent off 3 Alty players in one home match against, I believe Slough (Mr Cult may be able to confirm this)
is he working off the ian hulme theory? robbie left the field wth a neck injury (so must have been a bad collision to cause that) as for there player he was in more danger by the way he was throwing himself around on the floor.
The assessment of whether a challenge is reckless or dangerous (i.e. likely to endanger an opponent) can be as much down to how the challenge is intended as to how it ends up (i.e. the 'damage' to the opponent)
I reiterate again that I saw neither challenge therefore cannot comment but am trying to "part the fog" over how some of these decisions MAY be arrived at.
BTW those as old as I will recall the career of one Dave Serella being ended by him turning his ankle going to retrieve a ball to take a throw in. The injury resulting from an incident can sometimes be entirely disproportionate the the circumstances causing that injury.
I AM NOT (for the benefit of certain parties) DEFENDING ANY DECISION(S) MADE ON SATURDAY.
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I was making a very rare visit to Altrincham and was therefore really looking forward to this game. As somebody who gets to see an average of one game every 2 seasons, I was so disappointed that the referee destroyed any prospect of a contest. My view was that Densmore should have been booked; I didn't think the Rushden lad merited a red card for his challenge, but if the referee was going to apply consistency in his decision making them he had to show a red; and their first goal came after a clear foul on the keeper. As a result, my afternoon's entertainment was ruined, and no doubt it was the same for about 900 other people.
Oh well, I hope we don't get the same idiot when I next make it over for a game.
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I was making a very rare visit to Altrincham and was therefore really looking forward to this game. As somebody who gets to see an average of one game every 2 seasons, I was so disappointed that the referee destroyed any prospect of a contest. My view was that Densmore should have been booked; I didn't think the Rushden lad merited a red card for his challenge, but if the referee was going to apply consistency in his decision making them he had to show a red; and their first goal came after a clear foul on the keeper. As a result, my afternoon's entertainment was ruined, and no doubt it was the same for about 900 other people.
Oh well, I hope we don't get the same idiot when I next make it over for a game.
This is an excellent post and really sums it all up
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As for Saturdays Ref being the worst seen I would like to remain those experienced enough of the performance of a Referee from Oldham by the name of Gary Shaw who sent off 3 Alty players in one home match against, I believe Slough (Mr Cult may be able to confirm this)
Phil,
Great minds think alike, eh?
Mr Joyce's abysmal display last Saturday also prompted me to recollect the infamous Gary Shaw from Oldham and his Moss Lane refereeing nightmare all those years ago...
Saturday, 13th January 1996
GM Vauxhall Conference
Altrincham...0
Slough Town...1
In surely the most incompetent exhibition of refereeing ever witnessed at Moss Lane, Mister Shaw managed to send off four players in what was a humdrum game (until he began his disciplinary meltdown!).
I can't recall the name of the player from Slough who was dismissed but three Alty players received a red card that afternoon: Barry Butler, Mark Hughes and Greg Challender.
A few days after this match, a friend was speaking to someone who actually knew Gary Shaw and he confided that Mister Shaw had declared that he would not be setting foot in Altrincham ever again for his own personal safety!
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As for Saturdays Ref being the worst seen I would like to remain those experienced enough of the performance of a Referee from Oldham by the name of Gary Shaw who sent off 3 Alty players in one home match against, I believe Slough (Mr Cult may be able to confirm this)
Phil,
Great minds think alike, eh?
Mr Joyce's abysmal display last Saturday also prompted me to recollect the infamous Gary Shaw from Oldham and his Moss Lane refereeing nightmare all those years ago...
Saturday, 13th January 1996
GM Vauxhall Conference
Altrincham...0
Slough Town...1
In surely the most incompetent exhibition of refereeing ever witnessed at Moss Lane, Mister Shaw managed to send off four players in what was a humdrum game (until he began his disciplinary meltdown!).
I can't recall the name of the player from Slough who was dismissed but three Alty players received a red card that afternoon: Barry Butler, Mark Hughes and Greg Challender.
A few days after this match, a friend was speaking to someone who actually knew Gary Shaw and he confided that Mister Shaw had declared that he would not be setting foot in Altrincham ever again for his own personal safety!
What was more scary about Mr Shaw was that he was convinced that he was the best Referee on the Panl at the time and said so several times. He did however demand that four stewards stand outside his dressing room door and escort him to his Car
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Only talking about Shaw's performance with Alan B at half time on Saturday. My mate was on the line that day and I went as his guest and he'd obviously warned me before the game as to what a prat Shaw was. He actually arrived about half an hour after he should have done and arrogantly dismissed it but the most puzzling thing of all was that he said to his old fella when he went to get changed, "if there's any trouble after the game I'll see you at the car". It struck me as really strange at the time as there was no history between the clubs and it wasn't expected to be a battle or anything.