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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: EX GK on January 03, 2008, 11:07:22 PM
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Whilst Saturday's opponents and 90% of Conference National footballers were sat at home with their feet up, Alty's squad were training for 2 hours in the freezing cold on the Astro pitch near the ground . And this is the case week in, week out, with the intention of maintaining their place in this very competitive league. I spent 10 minutes or so talking to Stuart (Coburn) about how the league has changed in the last 5 years or so, from completely part time, other than Rushden when Mr. Martens took control, to now, with the likes of Oxford, Torquay, Exeter, York, Halifax,etc. , all clubs who have been nothing else but full - time as far as I can remember. Next time anyone question's the commitment of the lads, take the time to see them train, you'll soon change your mind, they desperately want to stay in Conference National, and what's more, feel confident in doing so.
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Good post that and it does put things into perspective.
I really hope that we can stay up this season, it would be terrible to go down, I don't care what people say about playing within our means or having more local games in the conference north. If we have any ambition as a club or supporters we should be desperate to stay in this league and try to build over the forthcoming years into a club who can once again challenge for promotion into the football league!!
Lets get behind the boys at Oxford as I know we will! :)
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Very true Ian,
We all forget at times how difficult it is for the true part time teams.
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fantastic posts
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Makes me wonder though...
If say 5yrs ago, The Conference was the promised land for non-professional players...does this mean that over time, this level has slipped to say Unibond level perhaps?
Obviously The Conference is the last level at which you play nationally, but as Ex GK has said...it is overwhelmingly populated by full-time teams / players.
As the famous Conference club that Altrincham are, and have been over the years...maybe it could be said that we are actually over-achieving by being here, if the level at which we have always battled...is now realistically a couple of league below us.
I'm not saying this as an Alti fan with a "lets hold on to our management / defeat is acceptable" slant on things...and of course the desire to win should be there regardless of level...but i think it's definitely a point worth considering.
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As bigger clubs with huge crowd potential like Oxford. Torquay, Cambridge, York, Exeter all came into the league I think thats when i realised how big it was getting. I still regard these clubs as league clubs in a way. A club that can suddenly pull 7,000 for a derby game, or talk of a sellout for a game where they could go top of the league.
If you look at it on paper, its pretty much a no brainer that a team who train 4 full days a week working on setpieces. corners and fitness should beat a team who train 4 hours a week after work.
However I don't think that has ever really been an issue with Alty fans. If we go to Torquay and lose 3-0, as long as we have worked 100%, no-one gets back on the coach and says "we should have beaten them , its a disgrace". They are like cup games, if Torquay have an off day and we play to our max we could get a draw or sneak it and its a bonus.
Its when we don't do the business against teams on a smiliar level to us that it becomes an issue. Stafford, Droylsden, Vics etc.
I am heartened by talk of starting to go full time..or at least that its being thought about.
If it isn't considered then if we manage to stay up this year then next year will just get harder.
For me the Conference is the level to be at. I never ever ever ever want to go to Redditch again or watch 5 people from Vauxhall run around the Chequers end after beating us 1-0. I will of course, but don't expect me to like it.
Some would say different, its personal choice I guess.
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What a refreshing thread. I'm pleased the training has been mentioned by Ian, I used to pop down myself when I lived nearer, I was always impressed by the effort put in by the players after work.I expect this squad is just as committed. I wholeheartedly agree with Ecky, there is no other place to be, unless we get promoted to the Football League. so we've got the rest of the season to make sure we stay here, starting on Saturday with a win at Oxford.
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I personally know how hard the lads train coz I put Stuart through a "gruelling" session, trying to iron 1 or 2 things out. For him, playing at the likes of Oxford and Exeter make all the effort worth while. As Ecky said, better than trips to Vauxhall and Redditch, with no disrespect to those clubs intended. How many Conference North clubs would swap with Alty's position now?
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Whilst Saturday's opponents and 90% of Conference National footballers were sat at home with their feet up, Alty's squad were training for 2 hours in the freezing cold on the Astro pitch near the ground . And this is the case week in, week out, with the intention of maintaining their place in this very competitive league. I spent 10 minutes or so talking to Stuart (Coburn) about how the league has changed in the last 5 years or so, from completely part time, other than Rushden when Mr. Martens took control, to now, with the likes of Oxford, Torquay, Exeter, York, Halifax,etc. , all clubs who have been nothing else but full - time as far as I can remember. Next time anyone question's the commitment of the lads, take the time to see them train, you'll soon change your mind, they desperately want to stay in Conference National, and what's more, feel confident in doing so.
As a final thought, after the above, full timers are now preparing for tomorrow's games, whilst Alty's players are going about their daytime jobs, and happy to be doing so.
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Here's how times have changed:
1979/80 Alty win 2-0 at Rotherham
2007/08 Two players from Rotherham reserves (or fringe first team at best) walk right into the team and improve the playing standard
Where are the part time John Davisons, John Kings and Jeff Johnsons of yesteryear?
Answer - theres more money being a full time player in Division 3 or 4 than being at the pnnacle of part time and holding down your day job.
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I think the difference is that those part time players are now full time in the conference never mind divisions three and four
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As bigger clubs with huge crowd potential like Oxford. Torquay, Cambridge, York, Exeter all came into the league I think thats when i realised how big it was getting. I still regard these clubs as league clubs in a way. A club that can suddenly pull 7,000 for a derby game, or talk of a sellout for a game where they could go top of the league.
If you look at it on paper, its pretty much a no brainer that a team who train 4 full days a week working on setpieces. corners and fitness should beat a team who train 4 hours a week after work.
However I don't think that has ever really been an issue with Alty fans. If we go to Torquay and lose 3-0, as long as we have worked 100%, no-one gets back on the coach and says "we should have beaten them , its a disgrace". They are like cup games, if Torquay have an off day and we play to our max we could get a draw or sneak it and its a bonus.
Its when we don't do the business against teams on a smiliar level to us that it becomes an issue. Stafford, Droylsden, Vics etc.
I am heartened by talk of starting to go full time..or at least that its being thought about.
If it isn't considered then if we manage to stay up this year then next year will just get harder.
For me the Conference is the level to be at. I never ever ever ever want to go to Redditch again or watch 5 people from Vauxhall run around the Chequers end after beating us 1-0. I will of course, but don't expect me to like it.
Some would say different, its personal choice I guess.
What hurts me is having to play teams who are full-time and have similar crowd structures as alty. Its unrealistic, and annoying that even though many of these teams meet the taxman eventually they still have that moment of glory in the meantime at our expense. For the likes of Torquay, York etc its just great for alty to go to these teams with a chance of getting something a la oxford.
The question I have is: How on earth will we sustain full-time without becoming one of the clubs we despise so much, ie Vics?
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Here's a few radical ideas as to the way to bring better players to Alty:
- Bin Season Tickets - I have one and I bought it because I know I will go to every home game (at least) and it was dirt cheap. If there was no season tickets would I still go to every game? Yep. I don't think it would put people off as those who have bought them are obviously loyal fans. If my maths is correct, 23 x £12 = £276. If my season ticket was £170 (cant remember to be honest) thats a £106 difference. Is there 200 season ticket holders? If so, thats £21,000 + in the coffers.
- Increase prices. Simple. £1 a ticket. Average home support is, say, 800 so thats £800 per game. 23 x £800 = £18,400.
- Charge Away fans what they pay at home. We are one of the cheapest and I cannot see how or why we cannot amend our away prices for the opposition. If the average away attendance is, say, 250 and this brings in an average of, say, £2 extra per away fan per game 23 x 250 x £2 = £11,500
So £21,000 + £18,400 + £11,500 = £50,900.
Its maybe not 100% mathematically correct and there are variables but the theory is sound (I think !!!). Its a start .......
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The problem with banning season tickets is two fold,
1. You get a source of income in the summer when little else is coming in.
2. Its money in the bank, how many fans might have just sacked two or three games off if they hadn't already paid to get in.
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From the bits i hear, it will not cost a huge amount more to go full time. lot of younger players at league clubs are not earning what some of our players get, and we don't pay big money.
We are also in a pretty unique position of having no debt at all so all income can go on the right things.
I think the one thing we know about the current board is they won't take a chance on much!
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Ecky, what about full time training facilities? Full time coaching staff? More to full time than full time players.
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The problem with banning season tickets is two fold,
1. You get a source of income in the summer when little else is coming in.
2. Its money in the bank, how many fans might have just sacked two or three games off if they hadn't already paid to get in.
Thats spot on re the summer income. Its something we all do at the end of April, forget about football, enjoy our lives for a couple of months and then wait for the fixtures to come out. However the bills still keep coming in.
I bet there are people with season tickets who have stopped coming..so its might be a good job we have a hold on some others.
I never used to buy a season ticket because I used to think that the club would make better use of my money in instalments. I get one now as I have to miss the odd home game but still feel i have contributed.
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Ecky, what about full time training facilities? Full time coaching staff? More to full time than full time players.
Oh indeed. I'm not saying its an easy step at all, I just don't think the leap is as massive as some people might think.
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there are several places i can think of, the British airways club on clay lane is always empty for one and i'm sure some sort of sponsorship deal could be struck up. shorts sponsor, training kit sponsor etc.
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This is developing into a real dabate, Longsden, how much to hire British Airways facility? £100 per day? £500 per week, £2000 per month, £16,000 for the season. That's a lot of sponsorship mate from training kit, etc. Then there's full time coaching staff, groundstaff to take care of the training facility, alternate training facilities for extreme weather, the list is endless. All sounds great untill the realities are brought to the fore.
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With regards to season tickets I can tell you that of the 300+ we have sold about 100 of them do not actually come to home games. So in effect, with the average cost of it being £7 (£170/23 league games approx£7), the season tickets actually make us £700 from peopel not there. Obviously the 200 who turn up are paying £1,400 less than they would so in effect....gate receipts are only down by £700. And the bosst from income during the summer is immeasurable, altho figuratively it's about £50,000.
Also, bear in mind that this looks good on balance sheets and re-assures the bank manager.
I found that one of the most bizarre things I'd ever heard when I was told but then consider it is people like Ecky, may miss 2/3 home games a season but it's still worth his while financially to purchase one, I know Jimmy Hill has one despite being a student in Oxford, his brother uses it when he isn't here but again, not every game. Still worthwhile though.
The putting up prices debate was done a lot at the start of the season and I think we've probably reached our limit for this level of football, particularly as one of the more 'price elastic' clubs in the league - i.e. putting our prices up would put off more people. Unfortunately this works slightly differently if you put prices down, we wouldn't necessarily get more through the gate! ::)
You have to charge the same amount for away fans as you do home. Some clubs charge away fans more by only making seating available to them but even then it's just paying what the home fans pay for seating. As we are one of the few clubs who make away fans go on an open terrace we can't really do that. Sometimes we let them under the stand if it's raining or a la Stevenage put htem in the family stand. I suppose you could argue to charge them more then but it's slightly churlish and we keep a bit of dignity by not doing so.
The Full Time thing is a really interesting one, I personally, couldn't see it happening but it's only right that we should at least sonsider the possibilities. I think what should have happened is that the wideboys living beyond their means should have cut down. It looked for example as if Gravesend, Weymouth, Crawley, Grays, Northwich and others would go part time and there would be 10-12 clubs in this league who were aprt time. It would then be feasible to be part time and compete. That hasn't happened though and the problem is that the clubs who come up are either like this season battling for 5th bottom or will more likely next season be full time clubs.
If Kettering and Telford come up from Conference North (and the 2 from the south are similar/full time) in place of, well 4 of the current bottom 5 then you will have a league with 20 south/southern midlans sides who are full time. Competing in this league part time when there are 7 or others is feasible, if there's only 2 of you then it just isn't and needs to be looked at.
Full time is a huge leap though, like exGk says, Training facilities being the most obvious. There would also be a shift in the way things are done. This club runs on unpaid volunteers, everyone does something for nothing really and you can't just pay someone to do something without keeping the volunteers on. I'm not saying that the volunteers would suddenly wnat paying but it's a hard shift to make. I'm not really explaining it very well but it's not as easy as saying 'oh get paid people in', it might work at Oxford where you need a arge amount of staff.
Anyway.
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you only have to look at stockport who train next to BA and opposite my house with great facility's, probebly the best two patches of football land in the area but.....
i often watch from my window and they train long ball football to kids and get them to cross it in before taking a touch,same for 1st team
what im saying is method is more important than apperatus, OH and BA's facilitys are now none existent
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Someone put a call out to Carole Nash !!!!!
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The problem with banning season tickets is two fold,
1. You get a source of income in the summer when little else is coming in.
2. Its money in the bank, how many fans might have just sacked two or three games off if they hadn't already paid to get in.
Thats spot on re the summer income. Its something we all do at the end of April, forget about football, enjoy our lives for a couple of months and then wait for the fixtures to come out. However the bills still keep coming in.
I bet there are people with season tickets who have stopped coming..so its might be a good job we have a hold on some others.
I never used to buy a season ticket because I used to think that the club would make better use of my money in instalments. I get one now as I have to miss the odd home game but still feel i have contributed.
I was told if you are full time you have to pay players for 50 weeks as where they are part time as of now you only have to pay for 40 weeks not completely sure of the full facts.
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The debate continues .....
I believe the best chance we have of moving forward comes from more success on the pitch, then more people come through the gates, the more they spend at the ground and more money we make. Its a vicious circle I KNOW, as the better players come at a cost. Lets pick on manchester united, the second team in Trafford, they partner with the Belgium’s as a feeder club. Is there a rule stopping Alty helping the potential Man Utd players gaining league experience? As I wonder what sort of level the Belgium reserve league is at? What do the Utd supporters do when they cant get a ticket or they are playing away. Watch FC United maybe? Can they be encouraged to attend with the assistance of Utd? If not why would they not want to come?
I don’t know the answer to any of the questions above, although I could guess not being full time covers most of the issues with players, but I know we need to double the average attendance to stop a hand to mouth existence
Stop ranting now
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Here's a few radical ideas as to the way to bring better players to Alty:
- Bin Season Tickets - I have one and I bought it because I know I will go to every home game (at least) and it was dirt cheap. If there was no season tickets would I still go to every game? Yep. I don't think it would put people off as those who have bought them are obviously loyal fans. If my maths is correct, 23 x £12 = £276. If my season ticket was £170 (cant remember to be honest) thats a £106 difference. Is there 200 season ticket holders? If so, thats £21,000 + in the coffers.
- Increase prices. Simple. £1 a ticket. Average home support is, say, 800 so thats £800 per game. 23 x £800 = £18,400.
- Charge Away fans what they pay at home. We are one of the cheapest and I cannot see how or why we cannot amend our away prices for the opposition. If the average away attendance is, say, 250 and this brings in an average of, say, £2 extra per away fan per game 23 x 250 x £2 = £11,500
So £21,000 + £18,400 + £11,500 = £50,900.
Its maybe not 100% mathematically correct and there are variables but the theory is sound (I think !!!). Its a start .......
I think that a few people have already commented on the ideas you have suggested.
The first is an interesting idea. I don't know the exact numbers, but i believe that, as Ballers says there are quite a few season ticket holders for every game who don't turn up.
Also remember that this seasons price for tickets was unusually low due to the uncertainty of the league we were in. We were already selling tickets before the news of our reprieve came through. This meant that the board couldn't really change the prices for them.
From memory, the original plan was 21 games at £10 in the conference north (due to 2 less teams). This changed to 23 at £12 when we got our reprieve. I would therefore suggest that, in future years the saving on season tickets will not be so high.
Also adding the cashflow advantage of having the money up front,I would suspect that this would in ordinary seasons not be a profitable scheme.
As for price increases, the debate on that could go on forever.....
I believe Ballers is also right that it is illegal to charge away fans more than home fans for the same facilities.
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But away fans dont have the same facilities?
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But away fans dont have the same facilities?
Indeed, I think this (lack of roof on the away end) was a loophole that a few clubs used to use. I think that this loophole has been closed.
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The roof is closed? When did we roof it?
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The roof is closed? When did we roof it?
It's not roofed, I think what Foz means is that the loophole of clubs trying to get cheaper ticket prices for their away fans due to our lack of shelter provided for them has closed.
Think that's right anyway Foz?
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The roof is closed? When did we roof it?
It's not roofed, I think what Foz means is that the loophole of clubs trying to get cheaper ticket prices for their away fans due to our lack of shelter provided for them has closed.
Think that's right anyway Foz?
Yes, sorry, I edited original message to try to clarify.
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Loophole? I dont understand!
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Loophole? I dont understand!
A loophole is a (usually) legal term for a way of getting around a rule or law.
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Yeah, but what about a roof?
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this is an interesting debate. Personally, I woulden't risk going full time on the example of other clubd. As said before, it is a vicuios circle. I know, like ecky said, that we will not compete next year, especially if full time clubs come up, but we could go full time, stay up and then not have a football club left to support. I know it sounds negative, but maybe in the next frew years we will end up back in regional football. Also with the first post, how many other players in this league would even have 5 minutes to talk to you?
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Another interesting debate is jam.
Do you like jam butty?
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i think we have to be getting 1,500 home fans (+ whatever the away team bring) to most matches before we should consider going full time.
Unless we are getting big gates i cant see where the money is going to come from.......
I think its worth considering that the main point of going full time...... what do you guys think it would be?? In my eyes going full time suggests that we should start making a push for promotion (something that i don't expect to seewithout some serious investment) Is theres any point of going full time only to find we finish 14th every season???
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There was also the mention of some full time players and some part time. All the loanees are full time and Greg Young has been playing at a full time club. So are we doing this in stages?
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All the full-timers trained last night, so I think you could term them "part-time full timers". Sounds right I think?
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All the full-timers trained last night, so I think you could term them "part-time full timers". Sounds right I think?
Do you notice any difference in training to their fitness or ability etc? How do the new lads seem to be settling in?
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and what/where are these full timers training?
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My suggestion is Timperley Sports Club. Two state of the art synthetic pitches (not hard on the kness) and two huge grass fields maintained by a groundstaff. Not used at all during the day and I know a good deal could be done.
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Timperley Sports Club's astro pitches are verging on the dangerous! No professional outfit could ever train on them...getting through a 20 minute leisure league game unscathed is a minor miracle!
Whoever bought them must be looking over towards BTH with a severe case of green eyed monster! The facilities there are world class!
Shame the cricket pitches at Timp. aren't put to better use though...they could be brilliant sufaces given the right attention.
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"Full Time" Vics training at BTH 3 days a week I believe.
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Timperley Sports Club's astro pitches are verging on the dangerous! No professional outfit could ever train on them...getting through a 20 minute leisure league game unscathed is a minor miracle!
Whoever bought them must be looking over towards BTH with a severe case of green eyed monster! The facilities there are world class!
Shame the cricket pitches at Timp. aren't put to better use though...they could be brilliant sufaces given the right attention.
I dont think they are that bad, they have only jst been re-made, and i trained on them all last season and felt they were gd, except when it was icey
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I agree. I was involved with funding the b*ggers and they weren't cheap !!!!
As I said earlier, they would charge very little as the pitches are dormant Mon-Fri during the day. Get the lads doing circuits of the golf course too !!!
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As said before, it is a vicuios circle.
God, I wouldn't want to get caught in a vicuios circle.