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[Uncle Globnasty]

OKay, don't wish to clog up the England thread.

Banbury, this is all coming across as very 'chip-on-the shoulder'? You are the one who started using evocative language on this topic using quotations for a atatement about sectarian bigotry that was only ever ushered by anyone from the FAI in the wildest dreams of upset NI fans.

As I'm sure you are well aware, articles 15-18 of FIFA's regulations govern this issue of nationality and contrary to popular belief in some quarters this actually has nothing to do with the good Friday agreement. The IFA have been aware of the eligibility issue for over a decade and a half now (as far back as 1994) when it was dsicussed in the minutes of a meeting (I can provide links if you wish).

The followaing players have been accused of being 'poached'.....let's take a look at what they themselves have to say (the horses mouth so to speak):

"No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country.”
 - Shane Duffy.

“It’s the best honour you can get to represent your country; it’s always been a dream of mine to play for Ireland.”
 - Marc Wilson.

"It was unbelievable, you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me.”
- Darron Gibson.

Shane Ferguson, another one about whom the accusation was initially made with Worthington feeding the media frenzy by making a number of negative comments about the young Newcastle player as he hadn't answered his calls. The man had made only a handful of appearances for Newcastle and clearly wanted to focus on getting more games under his belt before even considering senior international football. The reason for not accepting the call-up was perfectly clear and more professionalism was shown from the young lad from Derry than from the former Northern Ireland boss. Recently, Shane has silenced the media by pledging his future to Northern Ireland.

I am sure you are aware of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ruling in the case of Daniel Kearns? The IFA not only wanted the Court Of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) to rule in their favour in the case of the young player born in Belfast who wanted to play for the Republic, but also amend the rule completely. They mentioned the term “poaching” in the case itself but there is clearly a failure on the part of the IFA to recognise the true meaning of the term “poaching”. “Poaching” is illegal. In this case it would mean to take players contrary to the international laws that govern football. If the IFA were to stop players from the North from playing for the Republic it would be in direct violation of terms under the Good Friday Agreement. According to the agreement,  all people born in the North of Ireland are entitled to dual citizenship. So, Kearns, irrespective of being born in the North of Ireland and not having a parent or grandparent who were born in the Republic of Ireland, is perfectly entitled to play for the Republic because he holds dual citizenship. This is what was stated by CAS on that particular day.

Players born in Northern Ireland have been lining out for FAI teams under FIFA rules identical in effect to those in place today before the Good Friday Agreement. Ger Crossley, Gerard Doherty, Mark McKeever and Tony Shields, for example, were all born in Northern Ireland and, qualifying via their birthright to Irish nationality, played for FAI teams between 1995 and 1997. It would have been difficult for the FAI to turn them away given they were Irish nationals, after all. Countless others have played for Irish teams between the signing of the Good Friday Agreement and the saga involving Darron Gibson that seemed to implant the issue of player eligibility in the minds of Northern Ireland football supporters.

All this bullsh*t about the FAI engaging in sectarian plundering is complete and utter horse-sh*te and I suspect that you know that in reality Banbury as you strike me as a very reasonable and reasoned sort (as is evidenced by your avatar, a progressive unionist, who shed a very shady past to become truly a shining example of progressive unionism). All this rubbish about driving a wedge between the two communities. Again, there is no evidence for this whatsoever, nor is there any indication that the FAI would be unwilling to accept Northern Ireland-born Protestants into their teams. The FAI calling up Northern Ireland-born Irish nationals is neither deliberately sectarian nor sectarian in effect in that the FAI are simply accommodating the wish of Northern Ireland-born players good enough to play for the Republic of Ireland to realise their ambition. For all the FAI cares, they might as well be Catholic, Protestant or dissenter. The religious make-up of FAI teams just isn’t an issue. Nobody knows what the religious make-up of Irish international teams are because, frankly, nobody cares.

In fact, one could prove such an insulting inference wrong by pointing to the example of Alan Kernaghan. Kernaghan, who was born in England to English-born parents, but of Ulster Protestant descent, received 26 caps for the Republic of Ireland between 1993 and 1996. Kernaghan declared for the FAI after the IFA snubbed his advances due to an agreement they had in place with the other British associations at the time whereby Kernaghan or one of his parents would have had to have been born in Northern Ireland for him to qualify to play for Northern Ireland. As it was, Kernaghan only had Northern Ireland-born grand-parents.

It is true that those born in Northern Ireland who have declared for the FAI have almost exclusively been from a nationalist or Catholic background, but this is not indicative of any sectarianism on the part of the FAI; rather, it is indicative of the socio-cultural reality in Northern Ireland that distinguishes these individuals as the types who will, in contrast to those from a unionist background, naturally and primarily identify as Irish rather than as British or Northern Irish, feel an affiliation to the Republic of Ireland team and, therefore, dream to play for it one day.

As the Derry nobel laureate, Seamus Heaney, once wrote when objecting to his inclusion in a 1982 Penguin book of contemporary British Poetry:

“Don’t be surprised if I demur, for, be advised
 My passport’s green.
 No glass of ours was ever raised
 To toast The Queen.”

This is all down to individual freedom of choice for players with potentially dual nationality. In fact, if you are still convinced in your conspiracy theory I can provide you with several examples of players who have gone the other way having first played for FAI teams. If truth be told, it's only raised its ugly head again because James McClean is seen as such a prospect. The only real green in this argument is one of envy.

[Timperley The Best]

Wrong forum ?

[Uncle Globnasty]

Wrong forum ?

It is about a footballing issue that arose out of the Euros thread and as I did not wish to derail that thread any further I created another topic.

[Timperley The Best]

Ok fair enough I'm actually quite interested in it being from an irish background

[Robin Reliant]

You make very valid points,with which I am in agreement.

The Irish FA manage to put out excellent teams, considering the competition from both rugby and GAA for anyone with sporting prowess.

Ireland is not the only country where dual nationality can cause contention, ref the several players from South America who claim European dual nationality to enable them to play without work permits.

How long will it be before football goes down the road of allowing "residential status " for inclusion in national teams  as happens in rugby,
 athletics and cricket ?

[OldhamAlty]

How long will it be before football goes down the road of allowing "residential status " for inclusion in national teams  as happens in rugby,
 athletics and cricket ?

Wouldn't be surprised if it goes the other way.

There was a good Four Four Two article absolutely ages ago about the whole thing, saying FIFA were going to be looking at making it harder to change your country, and say you have to have lived there as a child. Maybe they decided against changing the rules, but considering the speed these bureaucrats move at, wouldn't suprise me if they're just getting round to it.

[Toff Apple]

Quite a few of our GB olympic team have been drafted in from the eastern block, for wrestling / weightlifting etc, makes it daft I think

[fuertes]

Without wanting to dismiss your (extremely comprehensive and in-depth!) post, Uncle Glob, I don't want to get bogged down in the minutiae who said what to whom or the details of 1990s journeymen. I want to focus on a point of principle, if I may.

Yes, the GFA allowed the citizens of Northern Ireland to consider themselves Irish. It even allowed them to hold Irish passports. Fine. But the GFA is a fudge designed to placate the holders of two fundamentally incompatible political positions. Northern Ireland remains a constituent part of the United Kingdom. ROI remains a separate country. Inextricably linked? Sure. But acknowledging the right of NI citizens to think of themselves as Irish shouldn't allow Northern Irish players with no history of residence in the South, nor any family ties, to turn out for that team. Just applying a bit of logic suggests a Northern Irishman has more of a case for randomly choosing to represent England or Scotland than the Irish Republic. But as you noted in your post, the Home Nations have a gentleman's agreement about player eligibility. An agreement NI have honoured.

I think your refusal to accept that ROI are playing to sectarian impulses is somewhat naive. If it's just a case of trying to tempt players with the lure of...what...a better standard of football? Then why hasn't there been a steady trickle of Protestants?

At the very least the IFA should be compensated for all the time and resources they pour in to training these players. Why is the little country having to train the bigger country's players for them? And give them experience of international youth football at the expense of their other prospects? Utter madness.

[Uncle Globnasty]

Without wanting to dismiss your (extremely comprehensive and in-depth!) post, Uncle Glob, I don't want to get bogged down in the minutiae who said what to whom or the details of 1990s journeymen. I want to focus on a point of principle, if I may.

Yes, the GFA allowed the citizens of Northern Ireland to consider themselves Irish. It even allowed them to hold Irish passports. Fine. But the GFA is a fudge designed to placate the holders of two fundamentally incompatible political positions. Northern Ireland remains a constituent part of the United Kingdom. ROI remains a separate country. Inextricably linked? Sure. But acknowledging the right of NI citizens to think of themselves as Irish shouldn't allow Northern Irish players with no history of residence in the South, nor any family ties, to turn out for that team. Just applying a bit of logic suggests a Northern Irishman has more of a case for randomly choosing to represent England or Scotland than the Irish Republic. But as you noted in your post, the Home Nations have a gentleman's agreement about player eligibility. An agreement NI have honoured.

I think your refusal to accept that ROI are playing to sectarian impulses is somewhat naive. If it's just a case of trying to tempt players with the lure of...what...a better standard of football? Then why hasn't there been a steady trickle of Protestants?

At the very least the IFA should be compensated for all the time and resources they pour in to training these players. Why is the little country having to train the bigger country's players for them? And give them experience of international youth football at the expense of their other prospects? Utter madness.

As stated, it has absolutely nothing to do with the GFA. Once again you are being disingenuous. Your original vitriol was directed at the fact that you considered the FAI to have "poached" players from NI and even to have used sectarian division as a lure and my main point was that there was no real tempting necessary and that you had absolutely no proof whatsoever that anyone from the FAI had sought to use sectarian bigotry as a recruitment weapon.

Personally I think the solution would be to have an all Ireland team that does not use the tricolour or the union jack and does not play god save the queen or Amhrán na bhFiann, but of course NI protestants are never going to go for that (although it kinda works with the Rugby). Irish nationalists by and large are not going to want to play under the Union Flag if they feel they can play under the tricolour and likewise, as you well know Banbury, NI protestants by and large are never going to want to play under the tricolour (which is why there's been no constant stream as you put it). Nobody should be forced to play for a 'country' that they do not feel a part of.

Whilst the two traditions exist on this Island it is hard to see true integration, the nationalists want a United Ireland and the Loyalists want to remain under the crown and never the twain shall meet. The best that can be hoped for is that the traditions become further and further watered down as the generations pass, the marching season dies the death it deserves and tribalism with it (because it isn't really nationalism on either side).

You see Banbury the bottom line is definition and I would consider anybody born on this Island or with parentage from this Island to be able to turn out for the Republic if they so wished....if they so WISHED (nobody is being coerced or cajoled). The footballing authorities agree and until that changes this situation will go on. As I stated earlier, it is not new and pre-dates the GFA. It's just that a couple of higher profile players (namely Gibson, who personally I don't care for anyway, and McClean) have stirred the hornets nest.

Historically speaking the whole issue along religious lines is laughable anyway as the original UNited Irishmen organisation was protestant and catholic together against the English oppression as we all know Wolfe Tone himself was a protestant, but that's another topic entirely for another forum and another day.

My only gripe with you was the provocative use of terms like "poaching" and bigotry and driving a sectraian wedge. I can fully understand why you and other supporters would be pissed off to see lads with the NI youth set-up transfer over to the FAI senior setup, but I can also understand why they would want to do so. Perhaps a rule change is required that if someone declares for a country as a youth they can not play for another country as a senior, but I can't see FIFA going for that, world football is littered with examples.

[RocketDan]

Putting the political/religious issue aside - surely any decent professional worth his salt would want to play at a major international competition?

If I was fortunate to be good enough at football and had the option of playing for either Northern Ireland or The Republic of Ireland, I would pick the one with which I felt I had the most chance of going to a world cup / european championship with.

Much like when Owen Hargreaves decided he was English and not Canadian.

[fuertes]

Fair enough, Uncle Glob. I can see where you're coming from and take on board what you're saying. Perhaps it's my inbred prejudices making me come on a bit strong. I try to be aware of them but sometimes they're hard to suppress 

As you say, it's the constant transfers from us to you that's driving me mad and seems totally unfair. Maybe a compromise can be reached? Players have to wait a certain number of years if they wish to change the nation they represent? Still wouldn't be my preferred choice, but at least it would stop willy-nilly flip-flopping.

[Uncle Globnasty]

Ahh Banbury, good man yerself, we all have the urges (ahemm) and try and keep them under control.....as I say maybe one day those particular urges will no longer be present in either camp. It will take a lot more integration in terms of schooling and every other aspect of life, but maybe one day (I suspect you and I will have long departed this mortal coil though).....now if we could just get religion out of the schools...... ;-)

Now back to the tribalism that encompasses all........COME ON ALTY

[thegazelle]

well feck me what a good debate that was and it all ended happily. Congratulations both Banbury and uncle on a very good discussion and no slagging each other off which is very unusual on this site . a goodwin for both of yez

[Uncle Globnasty]

well feck me what a good debate that was and it all ended happily. Congratulations both Banbury and uncle on a very good discussion and no slagging each other off which is very unusual on this site . a goodwin for both of yez

Thank you kind Sir. A very thorny issue entangled as it is with all sorts of other issues. Anyway, as a bizarre coincidence thejournal.ie (that I use to catch up with the news online) ran a poll this morning on the idea of an all-ireland football team. This was prompted by a Fine Gael senator suggesting such after a call had already been made for the same at the Sinn Fein Ard Fhéis (surprise, surprise). It has to be said that in both cases it was a woman who made the suggestion (and I have to be careful not to be sexist here, but who let them out of the kitchen in the first place). Whilst I'm kinda for the idea in essence, there are too many obstacles to overcome. I know I also cited the Rugby team as an example, but the demographic of your average rugby player or fan is VERY different to that of the footie fans (and Ireland's call is a dreadful anthem). And for the senator to include international rules in her example of all-Ireland teams was somewhat ludicruos as it is GAA (a sport where you'd be VERY hard pressed to find any Ulster unionists playing or spectating).

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-would-you-like-to-see-an-all-ireland-soccer-team-477634-Jun2012/

Anyway, there it is. Some of the comments are interesting to read (albeit with some muppetry). Mind you, not really representative as you are unlikely to get the knuckle-draggers from either side of the 'divide' reading thejournal.ie

[fuertes]

Ah, the old all-island team chestnut.

Unionists are not a non-people. Catherine Noone needs to wake up to that. Isn't it enough that ROI gets the pick of the 26 counties and almost half of those in the other 6? Jesus wept.

I've never liked Fine Gael. I think I prefer Republican Sinn Fein. At least there's a point of principle somewhere in their political dogma.