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Quote from: Hugh on November 07, 2020, 07:16:44 PM

Yes, I heard they were letting 300 in - the magic of Ross-shire! I suspect I would have struggled to get a ticket though (even if I lived there) - despite Dingwall having about half the population of Lymm! A bit shocked at the results of my poll - fully half expecting it to be next season before we can attend our matches, which would be a disaster. Of course it's only supposition at the moment that there'll be a game changing vaccine by March. Much better looking at other options for now. Learning to live with it? targeted protection? Hasn't done Sweden, South Dakota etc. any harm anyway.

I don't think a complete ban on attendees at football matches makes sense, but what you've said there is patently untrue. The Dakotas are enduring an absolutely horrific surge. To quote Vox; "North and South Dakota now have four to five times the weekly (US) average for daily new coronavirus cases per 100,000 people."

Meanwhile Sweden, who you consistently hold up as a positive example in this thread, has not done well at all, especially in comparison to its Scandinavian neighbours. As Time magazine tells us "As of Oct. 18, Sweden’s per-capita death rate—58.6 per 100,000 people—was among the highest in the world. And from early September to early October, average daily cases nationwide rose by 173%, with particularly dramatic increases in cities such as Stockholm and Uppsala."

Or as the British Medical Journal said back in September; "Compared with its neighbours Sweden has been unsuccessful in preventing deaths—Finland, for example, has had 343 deaths, which equals 62 deaths per million population." Essentially, Sweden had a death toll almost 10 times higher than their nearest neighbours.

Yes, I did hear something about Scandinavia.

 I mean, we can all cherry pick figures, I dare say I'm guilty of this myself at times. You could count Scotland as an honorary Nordic country (Shetland was Norwegian a few hundred years ago after all) and get a different picture again. My idea though was to present data from countries with different approaches (Brazil and Peru), and from countries which might indicate how we are doing and where we are going (France). I've got to draw the line somewhere or I'll be there all day, and others can say if they think the places chosen are self serving - robust criticisms serve a better understanding of the situation at the end of the day.

Since you mention Scandinavia, this is my understanding from what I remember. Norway has a lower percentage of the population that is elderly than Sweden - ie less deaths (average age for cv deaths, it is worth repeating, is over 80 globally, ie people who were likely to die soon anyway). Norway had a more severe flu season than Sweden last Winter, ie less "dry tinder" likely to die from a Spring bug.
And a large, fairly homogeneous urban area which straddles Sweden and one of its neighbours (I think it is the Oresund region which includes part of Denmark) had seen little difference in cv deaths on different sides of the border, despite differing restrictions, which one would not expect to happen if different restrictions had a big effect on results. I understand there was an issue with high numbers of deaths in Stockholm care homes early in this outbreak, so obviously Sweden did not get everything right. However I would maintain that more broadly, their approach has been vindicated, and has certainly defied the prediction of that computer model. (Professor Ferguson's ICL one)

For me, a key point is that Sweden's death numbers are massively different from what professor pantsdown's notorious computer model would have predicted. It must be emphasized that computer models are fundamentally different from actual science using real time clinical data on the ground (and why are we finding relevant data in the UK is hard to get hold of - or that a Danish study on general use of masks is hard to get published?)

Even if Sweden could have done better on the narrow criterion of cv deaths by locking down, they still might have been justified in their approach. They took a much lower economic hit, and might even have avoided recession if other countries had followed their lead, with the knock-on effect of less cuts. And cuts, as Labour was fond of telling us, cost lives. On a global scale, it is expected that many millions of people will starve, like, to death, because of government lockdowns. Whilst not the only consideration, it absolutely should be a major consideration, as well as the wars etc. that history suggests come from crashing the economy. And the malign changes to politics and culture that come from prolonged use of totalitarian measures.

As for South Dakota, I haven't been following them closely thus far, however, I would assume that their surge - and cv death rates - are less than we are seeing from Europe's worst lockdown idiots Belgium.

And Sweden's cv deaths and death rate continue to compare favourably to countries that I have been following, though obviously I will keep an eye on it.

My position from the start has been that if Sweden is not the disaster that Ferguson predicted then harsh lockdowns were wrong, rather than Sweden having to do better than any particular given country.

Nb I checked, and South Dakota's cv death rate is currently equivalent to 41,420 in the UK. Terrifying. Maybe I'll revise my view when they have a much higher death rate than lockdown maniacs Peru and Belgium.

If you're talking about net harm rather than just one bug which is going round, one could probably argue the approach of Sweden and South Dakota hasn't done them any harm. Anyway, I am arguing that. Maybe I should have been clearer in my previous post, but that's where I'm coming from.

And of course Sweden's death rate would be among the highest in the world wouldn't it? Just not as high as the countries I've been following. As I posted previously, the global death rate is equivalent to 10,492 UK deaths, Sweden's death rate is equivalent to 39,915 UK deaths, and the UK is, of course, worse again. And then there's lockdown nuts Peru...

Was I the only one who couldn't get the picture on full screen?

Yes, I heard they were letting 300 in - the magic of Ross-shire! I suspect I would have struggled to get a ticket though (even if I lived there) - despite Dingwall having about half the population of Lymm! A bit shocked at the results of my poll - fully half expecting it to be next season before we can attend our matches, which would be a disaster. Of course it's only supposition at the moment that there'll be a game changing vaccine by March. Much better looking at other options for now. Learning to live with it? targeted protection? Hasn't done Sweden, South Dakota etc. any harm anyway.

Quote from: Hugh on November 03, 2020, 11:25:43 PM

Quote from: MadFrankie on November 03, 2020, 12:07:33 PM

Quote from: Hale Alty on November 03, 2020, 10:57:20 AM

You're  missing the point a bit. You might catch Covid and get off relatively scott free, but the five people you pass it on to might not be in such good health as you and suffer much worse consequences.

They're also forgetting that there's an off-topic thread for discussing this nonsense.

The point is, "London" Alty, how are Barnton supposed to enforce this nonsense?

And did anyone tell the pen pushers that the first round (or whatever this is) of the csc is not particularly "elite"?

100% Altrincham fc first team related. There is plenty of comment on the ot thread about the current debacle for those interested.

From my place in the “WA15” part of “That London” I’d say that they should just play it behind closed doors. If they want to go beyond that then they just need to apply the rules. Hope that helps.

Thanks for that, I guess I can't disagree, they couldn't play today anyway.

I wasn't actually planning to try and attend, you understand (though I dare say there's people who would in a similar situation - Luton v City, Turkey v England spring to mind)). I was mainly trying to point out what a bizarre situation it is for a club like Barnton to be in for what would normally be a nothing match.

Anyway, I'm glad we won, and hope that we can all attend properly in the next round, whenever that is. (Well you never know...). Always liked the Cheshire cup. "she wore a scarlet ribbon in the merry merry month... she said it's for the Alty and we're going wherever it is"

Have to post full update tomorrow (lousy 12h shifts) but briefly, cv deaths seem to be levelling off a bit. Try telling that to the lemmings in Westminster!

Quote from: Hale Alty on November 03, 2020, 10:57:20 AM

You're  missing the point a bit. You might catch Covid and get off relatively scott free, but the five people you pass it on to might not be in such good health as you and suffer much worse consequences.

They're also forgetting that there's an off-topic thread for discussing this nonsense.

The point is, "London" Alty, how are Barnton supposed to enforce this nonsense?

And did anyone tell the pen pushers that the first round (or whatever this is) of the csc is not particularly "elite"?

100% Altrincham fc first team related. There is plenty of comment on the ot thread about the current debacle for those interested.

But whilst this nonsene is ruining our season, obviously there will be some mention of it on here too from time to time. Same as Alty ladies' team, Alty youth team etc. etc. Why don't you just scroll past it if you're not interested, same as other people?

Speaking of which, my new poll....

Barnton still on then? With home supporters only?!

May as well run through the scenario.

How are they going to enforce this if it is the case? Season ticket holders only - so a crowd of 20 (ish ish ish) instead of 109. (Headline - "Barnton season ticket sales suspended amid mysterious spike in numbers"). Only let in people they know? (here's the entry fee mate, and a little something for yourself. If anyone asks, I've been going for years"). What if I want to go along as a neutral or a groundhopper? And is it one of those daft grounds like Brackley where you can see a bit of the pitch from outside the ground? ("Police called to disperse 'Alty rRazor Squad' in Northwich suburb. Many lives saved"). All for an early round Cheshire Cup tie with open terracing (or whatever they have at Barnton). Strange times indeed!