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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: LeeSalford on May 07, 2008, 12:58:45 PM
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I've been watching the debate raging about the future of Altrincham F.C. with interest. While I'm impressed with the amount of passion shown, I do think that some of the comments could be more level-headed and less personalised. Whatever your point of view, having a sharp dig at the current Board and Management isn't necessary. They haven't done anything illegal, spiteful or underhand. Quite the opposite. They've put their own passion, time and money into saving the club and keeping it afloat in the short term. They've done many things behind the scenes that rest on goodwill not million-pound loans. Whatever you think of Graham Heathcote or his style of management, you can't deny his passion for the club, his knowledge of the non-league game and the amount of tasks he takes on board at the ground. He also has the ability to entice and keep players that are firm favourites with the fans ... Little, Shotton, Coburn, Senior, etc.. To those people who wish to change all this, I'd say that you do have a valid and important point of view.
But it's a big set of questions that you're asking. What kind of club should Alty be? And how high should we aim? Do we want to rise to the level of Man. Utd? Or Burnley? Crewe?
The giddy heights of Cheltenham Town? Would we want to mirror the "successes" of Boston United, or become a solid 50-60 point-a-season BSP side (like Halifax?!). Can million-pound backers be found to finance any of this? Do we have to turn professional? Can we ever attract big enough crowds .. to match Wigan? Stockport? F.C. United?
Or do we follow the tradition since 1903? Supporting a non-league, semi-professional "community club aiming to play in the highest league we can afford."
My own opinion, as a fan of the last 40 years, is that if I wanted to support a team at a higher level I'd watch Man. Utd, City or Stockport. If I just wanted a team with limitless ambition and recent successes on the pitch, I'd switch to F.C.United. But I don't want these things ... no true Alty fan does because our team is Altrincham F.C. and always will be. Through good times and bad. Through good substitutions and bad. With or without extra cash from ground-sharing. With or without a recognised natural left-back. Defence or attack. So ... by all means debate the issues, the options for the future and the tactics on the pitch. But please keep the bigger picture in view and avoid personal attacks on decent people who give a lot of time and money trying to do their best for the club.
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that is a very good post.
My personal view is that we owe Graham H a huge debt of gratitude but that he seems to be worn down by the job and that's why i wanted a debate about his future.
anyway, hot off the press.
Halifax creditors meeting has broken up without agreement, adjourned until friday morning
I do feel for their fans today. I do think the massive financial mismanagement merits demotion but the idiots who have run the club have left it on the brink of going ker-plunk. Not clever.
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I'd be lying if I said that I thought you had no connection whatsoever to any of the club officials you seem so passionate about defending.
I would also like to point out a few things in your post:
It appears to suggest that as an Alty fan of 40 years you watch alty because they are traditional and have always played within their means? If this was the case the board would never have had to work as hard as they have.
Or do we follow the tradition since 1903? Supporting a non-league, semi-professional "community club aiming to play in the highest league we can afford."
You also state regarding the board:
They've put their own passion, time and money into saving the club and keeping it afloat in the short term. They've done many things behind the scenes that rest on goodwill not million-pound loans.
So have the fans. I dont know an alty fan who hasnt put an extra fiver in the bucket or taken time off work to support alty or gone out of the way to contribute to all of the charitable activities that raise money for the club. There isn't many sets of fans that have devoted as much good will to the club as alty.
The fact that we are fans gives us every right to be aggrieved with the way things are done by board and management. The fans are the biggest stakeholders in the club, we provide 90% of the revenue. What modern enterprise or foundation doesn't listen to the needs and wants of its paying public?
Everybody acknowledges the work and commitment of the board and GH, and we all salute it. Nobody will ever deny it (aside from VofD) or suggest otherwise. But we recognise that commitment because we have all contributed at some stage or another and understand what it takes.
We have every right to be critical of the clubs activities, we've invested everything as well. Our only realistic return is success on the pitch in one form or another, not just by winning games but also by actually playing football in games.
I can only speak for myself, but if you only support alty because of the type of club we are then we are miles apart. I support alty because i came to watch them and fell in love with watching alty. Yes i admire the values the club stands for, but I also envy the values that other 'bigger' clubs have. I dont support them though, I support alty, and that means that when im not happy with the club I have to want things to change. I dont support alty because of what we stand for, you make it sound as if we could just drop it and support someone else if we decided they had better principles.
If you really care about supporting the clubs heritage and its wise stance financially I think you should re-assess your opinion on the ground-sharing as well.
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Posted by: LeeSalford
Insert Quote
I've been watching the debate raging about the future of Altrincham F.C. with interest. While I'm impressed with the amount of passion shown, I do think that some of the comments could be more level-headed and less personalised. Whatever your point of view, having a sharp dig at the current Board and Management isn't necessary. They haven't done anything illegal, spiteful or underhand. Quite the opposite. They've put their own passion, time and money into saving the club and keeping it afloat in the short term. They've done many things behind the scenes that rest on goodwill not million-pound loans. Whatever you think of Graham Heathcote or his style of management, you can't deny his passion for the club, his knowledge of the non-league game and the amount of tasks he takes on board at the ground. He also has the ability to entice and keep players that are firm favourites with the fans ... Little, Shotton, Coburn, Senior, etc.. To those people who wish to change all this, I'd say that you do have a valid and important point of view.
But it's a big set of questions that you're asking. What kind of club should Alty be? And how high should we aim? Do we want to rise to the level of Man. Utd? Or Burnley? Crewe?
The giddy heights of Cheltenham Town? Would we want to mirror the "successes" of Boston United, or become a solid 50-60 point-a-season BSP side (like Halifax?!). Can million-pound backers be found to finance any of this? Do we have to turn professional? Can we ever attract big enough crowds .. to match Wigan? Stockport? F.C. United?
Or do we follow the tradition since 1903? Supporting a non-league, semi-professional "community club aiming to play in the highest league we can afford."
My own opinion, as a fan of the last 40 years, is that if I wanted to support a team at a higher level I'd watch Man. Utd, City or Stockport. If I just wanted a team with limitless ambition and recent successes on the pitch, I'd switch to F.C.United. But I don't want these things ... no true Alty fan does because our team is Altrincham F.C. and always will be. Through good times and bad. Through good substitutions and bad. With or without extra cash from ground-sharing. With or without a recognised natural left-back. Defence or attack. So ... by all means debate the issues, the options for the future and the tactics on the pitch. But please keep the bigger picture in view and avoid personal attacks on decent people who give a lot of time and money trying to do their best for the club.
LeeSalford,
well done for putting some common sense into all thats been said on here over the past couple of days/months/years (delete as applicable),
A1 post
have a goodwin on me
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I've been watching the debate raging about the future of Altrincham F.C. with interest. While I'm impressed with the amount of passion shown, I do think that some of the comments could be more level-headed and less personalised. Whatever your point of view, having a sharp dig at the current Board and Management isn't necessary. They haven't done anything illegal, spiteful or underhand. Quite the opposite. They've put their own passion, time and money into saving the club and keeping it afloat in the short term. They've done many things behind the scenes that rest on goodwill not million-pound loans. Whatever you think of Graham Heathcote or his style of management, you can't deny his passion for the club, his knowledge of the non-league game and the amount of tasks he takes on board at the ground. He also has the ability to entice and keep players that are firm favourites with the fans ... Little, Shotton, Coburn, Senior, etc.. To those people who wish to change all this, I'd say that you do have a valid and important point of view.
But it's a big set of questions that you're asking. What kind of club should Alty be? And how high should we aim? Do we want to rise to the level of Man. Utd? Or Burnley? Crewe?
The giddy heights of Cheltenham Town? Would we want to mirror the "successes" of Boston United, or become a solid 50-60 point-a-season BSP side (like Halifax?!). Can million-pound backers be found to finance any of this? Do we have to turn professional? Can we ever attract big enough crowds .. to match Wigan? Stockport? F.C. United?
Or do we follow the tradition since 1903? Supporting a non-league, semi-professional "community club aiming to play in the highest league we can afford."
My own opinion, as a fan of the last 40 years, is that if I wanted to support a team at a higher level I'd watch Man. Utd, City or Stockport. If I just wanted a team with limitless ambition and recent successes on the pitch, I'd switch to F.C.United. But I don't want these things ... no true Alty fan does because our team is Altrincham F.C. and always will be. Through good times and bad. Through good substitutions and bad. With or without extra cash from ground-sharing. With or without a recognised natural left-back. Defence or attack. So ... by all means debate the issues, the options for the future and the tactics on the pitch. But please keep the bigger picture in view and avoid personal attacks on decent people who give a lot of time and money trying to do their best for the club.
Hmmm, so you're not ambitious for the side to do well?
You are related to someone at the club and I claim my £5.
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My own opinion, as a fan of the last 40 years, is that if I wanted to support a team at a higher level I'd watch Man. Utd, City or Stockport.
I agree with many of the points you make.
However this one above is where we differ - and I think most Alty fans would do to. I DO want to support a team in a 'higher level' but I want that team to be Alty.
I certainly don't want the club to overspend again and be on the brink of going under but to be 'happy' to play in the BSN? I don't think so!
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This is so obviously a friend/relative of one of the clique it's untrue!
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This is so obviously a friend/relative of one of the clique it's untrue!
The points about making personal digs at the board is similar to GR's comments from his statement last month about being "hurt by unfounded comments".
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I'd be lying if I said that I thought you had no connection whatsoever to any of the club officials you seem so passionate about defending.
I would also like to point out a few things in your post:
It appears to suggest that as an Alty fan of 40 years you watch alty because they are traditional and have always played within their means? If this was the case the board would never have had to work as hard as they have.
Or do we follow the tradition since 1903? Supporting a non-league, semi-professional "community club aiming to play in the highest league we can afford."
You also state regarding the board:
They've put their own passion, time and money into saving the club and keeping it afloat in the short term. They've done many things behind the scenes that rest on goodwill not million-pound loans.
So have the fans. I dont know an alty fan who hasnt put an extra fiver in the bucket or taken time off work to support alty or gone out of the way to contribute to all of the charitable activities that raise money for the club. There isn't many sets of fans that have devoted as much good will to the club as alty.
The fact that we are fans gives us every right to be aggrieved with the way things are done by board and management. The fans are the biggest stakeholders in the club, we provide 90% of the revenue. What modern enterprise or foundation doesn't listen to the needs and wants of its paying public?
Everybody acknowledges the work and commitment of the board and GH, and we all salute it. Nobody will ever deny it (aside from VofD) or suggest otherwise. But we recognise that commitment because we have all contributed at some stage or another and understand what it takes.
We have every right to be critical of the clubs activities, we've invested everything as well. Our only realistic return is success on the pitch in one form or another, not just by winning games but also by actually playing football in games.
I can only speak for myself, but if you only support alty because of the type of club we are then we are miles apart. I support alty because i came to watch them and fell in love with watching alty. Yes i admire the values the club stands for, but I also envy the values that other 'bigger' clubs have. I dont support them though, I support alty, and that means that when im not happy with the club I have to want things to change. I dont support alty because of what we stand for, you make it sound as if we could just drop it and support someone else if we decided they had better principles.
If you really care about supporting the clubs heritage and its wise stance financially I think you should re-assess your opinion on the ground-sharing as well.
Narcissist.
I don't think I have ever criticised the Board's work or commitment.My issue is with the manager in respect of his tactics and his conduct ( a la Torquay etc)when representing our club. I have been a season ticket holder for 24 years and if i didn't care passionately about Alty why on earth would I get up at 5 am on a Saturday morning to do a shift of work in order that I can get to support them in the afternoon.I also think at the moment you will find that mine is not the only " voice of dissent" and like everybody else on here I really want to see the club go places. But last season??
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In that case it should read:
Everybody acknowledges the work and commitment of the board and GH, and we all salute it. Nobody will ever deny it or suggest otherwise. But we recognise that commitment because we have all contributed at some stage or another and understand what it takes.
Now, let there be peace!
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In that case it should read:
Everybody acknowledges the work and commitment of the board and GH, and we all salute it. Nobody will ever deny it or suggest otherwise. But we recognise that commitment because we have all contributed at some stage or another and understand what it takes.
Now, let there be peace!
Pax vobiscum.
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Pax vobiscum.
(http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/reviews/190/1161355771.jpg)
Apropo.
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Fair play to those who responded to my post. I respect the passion and the different view points.
But I have to clarify one thing ... I'm not best mates with or related to any of the people that run the club. I just support them. Nothing complicated.
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Or do we follow the tradition since 1903? Supporting a non-league, semi-professional "community club aiming to play in the highest league we can afford."
My own opinion, as a fan of the last 40 years, is that if I wanted to support a team at a higher level I'd watch Man. Utd, City or Stockport.
So, what would you have done if Alty had (deservedly) been elected to join the old Fourth Division back in 1980?
Quote from: LeeSalford on Today at 12:58:45 pm
If I just wanted a team with limitless ambition and recent successes on the pitch, I'd switch to F.C.United. But I don't want these things ... no true Alty fan does because our team is Altrincham F.C. and always will be.
Personally, I'd settle for believing that the club does actually possess a modicum of ambition to exist beyond the 'safe' confines of the Blue Square North and just enough successes on the pitch to finish fifth from bottom of the Blue Square Premier.....!
Quote from: LeeSalford on Today at 12:58:45 pm
But please keep the bigger picture in view and avoid personal attacks on decent people who give a lot of time and money trying to do their best for the club.
Please also address this request to our current manager re. his outbursts at long-standing supporters.
[/quote]
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Posted by: LeeSalford
Insert Quote
I've been watching the debate raging about the future of Altrincham F.C. with interest. While I'm impressed with the amount of passion shown, I do think that some of the comments could be more level-headed and less personalised. Whatever your point of view, having a sharp dig at the current Board and Management isn't necessary. They haven't done anything illegal, spiteful or underhand. Quite the opposite. They've put their own passion, time and money into saving the club and keeping it afloat in the short term. They've done many things behind the scenes that rest on goodwill not million-pound loans. Whatever you think of Graham Heathcote or his style of management, you can't deny his passion for the club, his knowledge of the non-league game and the amount of tasks he takes on board at the ground. He also has the ability to entice and keep players that are firm favourites with the fans ... Little, Shotton, Coburn, Senior, etc.. To those people who wish to change all this, I'd say that you do have a valid and important point of view.
But it's a big set of questions that you're asking. What kind of club should Alty be? And how high should we aim? Do we want to rise to the level of Man. Utd? Or Burnley? Crewe?
The giddy heights of Cheltenham Town? Would we want to mirror the "successes" of Boston United, or become a solid 50-60 point-a-season BSP side (like Halifax?!). Can million-pound backers be found to finance any of this? Do we have to turn professional? Can we ever attract big enough crowds .. to match Wigan? Stockport? F.C. United?
Or do we follow the tradition since 1903? Supporting a non-league, semi-professional "community club aiming to play in the highest league we can afford."
My own opinion, as a fan of the last 40 years, is that if I wanted to support a team at a higher level I'd watch Man. Utd, City or Stockport. If I just wanted a team with limitless ambition and recent successes on the pitch, I'd switch to F.C.United. But I don't want these things ... no true Alty fan does because our team is Altrincham F.C. and always will be. Through good times and bad. Through good substitutions and bad. With or without extra cash from ground-sharing. With or without a recognised natural left-back. Defence or attack. So ... by all means debate the issues, the options for the future and the tactics on the pitch. But please keep the bigger picture in view and avoid personal attacks on decent people who give a lot of time and money trying to do their best for the club.
LeeSalford,
well done for putting some common sense into all thats been said on here over the past couple of days/months/years (delete as applicable),
A1 post
have a goodwin on me
Ditto
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Thanks to those who took the time and trouble to read and respond to my original post on this subject. I think a few of you deserve a reply to your questions, so here's a few final thoughts.
Cult of Ian Tunnacliffe asked what I would have done if Alty had gone into the old 4th Division back in 1980. Good question. Obviously I supported Alty through successful times as they went from Cheshire League to NPL to the Alliance ... and then later going from Unibond through Conference North and back into non-league's top-flight. Like any fan, I've loved it when we've won cups and league titles, and I was desperate for us to get into the 4th Division. My original point was that I would support Alty through thick and thin, whatever level they played at. But 1980 was a different era. Then, a semi-pro club made up of scaffolders and teachers, etc. could win back-to-back APL titles and rule the non-league roost. The climate has changed and a club like ours has had to re-adjust. Recently, survival and stability have become the main issues. But in 1980 or 2008, the questions are the same ... whether or not to turn professional ... how to attract greater finance and larger crowds, etc.. I'd love to see Alty become force to be reckoned with again but I'm admittedly cautious because of the recent threat of my club going out of business. I'd want progress to be realistic and sustainable. Perhaps the earlier example of Alty going up for election is more interesting. In the days when two non-league teams were put forward, one from the Northern Premier League and one from the Southern. Alty could have followed Wimbledon's route. The Don's fans were in dreamland for 10 years, rising through the divisions and eventually winning the F.A Cup. It would have been brilliant if it had been Alty. But we all know what happened next ... I wouldn't have liked to have experienced the Don's fans' trauma. They didn't leave their club ... it left them. To respond to Narcissist's suggestion that there might be a point at which I'd stop supporting Alty ... well probably the honest answer after 40 years loyalty is ... only if they left me to become a club like MK Dons! It's a shame, Narcissist, that you think we're "miles apart." We've both invested time and money in the club and you're right ...we've earned the right to an opinion on how it's run - in this case I'm extra-cautious and want the club to remain stable in the short term and you'd prefer a clean broom through Moss Lane with a new direction, moving forward quicker. But if we got together over a beer and shared stories of our favourite Alty moments, players, and goals over the years we'd see what we have in common. That we love the club and want it to prosper. With regard to your comment on ground-sharing, you're right to be concerned. The situation has to be managed carefully. But let's see how it goes - we can always opt out in future seasons. Personally I'm not threatened by F.C. United in the slightest. They're a completely different animal to Altrincham F.C.. They're a supporters' team and their communal link is the Mother club they left behind - hence the red shirts and the name United. But good luck to them. Altrincham have had a vibrant 100-year sporting history at the heart of the town's community. Maybe sharing resources in the short term will benefit both clubs. Enjoy the Summer!
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LeeSalford,
well done for putting some common sense into all thats been said on here over the past couple of days/months/years (delete as applicable),
A1 post
have a goodwin on me
I refer to my first post!!!!!!!!
Have another Goodwin
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Nice words LeeSalford and nice to read someone who takes a step back before replying. A trait which often deserts me.
I dont think we are miles apart, I didnt think you would only support alty 'because of the type of club we are'. It was just to highlight to you that I would support alty no matter what league we were in or what state our administration was in. I never chose to support alty, I came, I saw, they conquered me, I never felt the option or desire to stop supporting them. I just feel lucky that I support a club with such amazing values, it wasnt a choice. I think for this we have a huge debt of gratitude to the current board. Alty's values havent always been that great remember!
As far as FCUM is concerned. A slight overreaction perhaps, but also i do think that they have no understanding of non-league football and what it stands for in a community. There's a huge risk there. None the less, good luck to them, I hope they find a place in manc that needs them, its just not Alty and never will be hopefully!