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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: oneedham on February 06, 2024, 06:25:26 PM
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Not having that a high water table is the reason why the game was called off today.
Need an official update from the club.
What are the issues with the pitch?
With the pitch guarantee, was it 10 years? Does it include repairs, because it is clearly not draining as it should.
Have the club investigated the local water drainage from the ground for a mile or 2. Could be a blockage further away from the ground, restricting flow……
Why are we advertising that we were confident the game was going ahead and no update until just before 5.
Has the sprinkler pipes been checked?could be a leak there…
180k on a pitch and it is really poor, after only 2 seasons.
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Perhaps the council are after opening a sailing club…
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Perhaps I'm in the minority, but no previous iteration of the pitch would have stood up to any of the games that have been postponed this season.
If anyone points to the fact we never used to have cancellations back in the day, it's because they were quite happy playing on a lake.
However, that doesn't absolve the club from their responsibility to protect it with even the most basic of covers, which I assume is what other clubs do.
Looking at the forecast from the weekend this game always looked strongly doubtful - they should have just made an early call on it.
The game on Saturday will be fine and I'm sure the pitch will allow us to play our usual brand of football too.
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We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.
Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.
The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.
Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.
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Could it mean playing elsewhere ie FC United in March or April if this continues ?
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The club has improved its PR and comms tremendously over the last few years, which means equally that there can be no radio silence or weasel words about what the issues exactly are and what will be done about them. No excuses or free passes here.
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Perhaps I'm in the minority, but no previous iteration of the pitch would have stood up to any of the games that have been postponed this season.
Respectfully, I have to disagree with your assertion.
In my 50+ years of watching Alty, I can never recall the area directly in front of the main stand being in such moribund condition (and that even includes those seasons when Trafford Borough were churning it up on a regular basis).
There is manifestly an underlying issue with the drainage in that section which will require some remedial work during the summer (hopefully, covered by a warranty).
As I posted on here back on 23rd January, I feel that a statement from the board relating to the playing surface is now long overdue.
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We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.
Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.
The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.
Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.
Do not disagree if a genuine cost / benefit analysis proves to be positive....otherwise, why should Community Tax payers support private sports clubs ?
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We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.
Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.
The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.
Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.
Do not disagree if a genuine cost / benefit analysis proves to be positive....otherwise, why should Community Tax payers support private sports clubs ?
Totally agree with that. Bear in mind too that Sale Sharks currently play right by the border between Trafford and Salford so bringing them "home" would be a very expensive piece of symbolism. Moving us miles away from our community and support base would be a disaster and rip up all the good work done to build up the crowds.
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Would hate to move away from Moss Lane.
Would it be worth hiring a field expert in looking at ways to divert water away from the ground externally. Prevent it from coming under the pitch in the first place.
Build a drainage system and pitch on top of a concrete base…
Look at where the water drains off the pitch, maybe a bigger and more direct large pipe that could meet the drains outside.
Putting tubing under the pitch doesn’t mean it is expected to drain away successfully. Needs a free flowing direction out of the ground.
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When the new pitch/drainage was laid a few seasons back we were told it could drain around 25mm of rain in 24 hours. Yesterday looking at a local weather station we had 8.4mm of rain. Clearly there is an issue with the drainage in my opinion. Sods law made it rain before the match yesterday, frustrating as we could have played on it Saturday, Sunday and Monday as little rain.
We need a solution so as not to scupper our chances of making the play offs.
I'm sure the club are looking at the issue and coming up with a solution but it would be good to know some of the plans they have in mind.
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The pitch is still better than it was before the drainage went in. There was often standing water in the quarter by the fan zone when we were in Conference North.
I'm wondering if there has been some heavy equipment on the pitch during the off season to put up the Atlantic Timber hoarding on the main stand and that has damaged the drains. They had similar problems at Edgeley Park.
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There is a comprehensive message from Sam on the website
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There is a comprehensive message from Sam on the website
Good to read such a full explanation, also to hear that Dorking fans were looked after.
Anybody else intrigued by "However, we know we have some very big challenges ahead of us, and some potentially tough decisions to make" at the end? Is this a trailer for a ground move?
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There is a comprehensive message from Sam on the website
Good to read such a full explanation, also to hear that Dorking fans were looked after.
Anybody else intrigued by "However, we know we have some very big challenges ahead of us, and some potentially tough decisions to make" at the end? Is this a trailer for a ground move?
I'd say it's more a case of every pound we spend off the pitch is a pound less to spend on the team. The problem is that we've got a team which is getting better and better but a stadium that's woefully inadequate for this level and the crowds we now get. If we do manage to get promoted then it's an even more pressing issue. Things have come to a head on this and something has to give.
Credit to the club also for the quick and clear response.
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There is a comprehensive message from Sam on the website
Good to read such a full explanation, also to hear that Dorking fans were looked after.
Anybody else intrigued by "However, we know we have some very big challenges ahead of us, and some potentially tough decisions to make" at the end? Is this a trailer for a ground move?
I'd say it's more a case of every pound we spend off the pitch is a pound less to spend on the team. The problem is that we've got a team which is getting better and better but a stadium that's woefully inadequate for this level and the crowds we now get. If we do manage to get promoted then it's an even more pressing issue. Things have come to a head on this and something has to give.
Credit to the club also for the quick and clear response.
It could also mean taking on some debt to finance the redevelopment of the ground, and gauging what level of finance we would view as being sustainable in the longer term.
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Interesting how we all have a different take.
My take was we need to make sure we don't end up with too much debt so players may have to be sold on from time to time.
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I don't like to think of myself as a cold hearted kind of person but I find moving ground something akin to indifference. Moss Lane is full of happy memories and some not so memorable times. They're all in the past and won't be forgotten. However, it's looking forward to the future that counts and if staying put is solely for nostalgia and sentimentality it's for the wrong reasons. If moving is deemed the right thing to do to drive the club onwards and upwards I'm all for it. It won't delete the memory of the JDS/Moss Lane.
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We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.
Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.
The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.
Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.
Do not disagree if a genuine cost / benefit analysis proves to be positive....otherwise, why should Community Tax payers support private sports clubs ?
Who said the Council fund it? They just need to show some willing to make it happen. They have been the core issue with every attempt that has been made by Sale to both stay (Heywood Road development) and to come back (Fletcher Moss Proposal being the most recent)
The idea behind it being a dual-team venue is how it can be funded... There are Billionaire owners at both teams at this point.
We build a 15,000 seat stadium with two on-site training facilities a la Carrington and Edgerton for both teams. They are available for the community each evening and for schools on schedule in the day.
We've no chance of staying at Moss Lane, we had issues getting locals on board for improved floodlights that reduced the light leak onto their houses. Does anyone honestly think they will stand for major stand builds on their doorstep?
To the out-of-town argument, York moved out of town and gained 1500 new fans...
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We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.
Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.
The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.
Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.
Do not disagree if a genuine cost / benefit analysis proves to be positive....otherwise, why should Community Tax payers support private sports clubs ?
Who said the Council fund it? They just need to show some willing to make it happen. They have been the core issue with every attempt that has been made by Sale to both stay (Heywood Road development) and to come back (Fletcher Moss Proposal being the most recent)
The idea behind it being a dual-team venue is how it can be funded... There are Billionaire owners at both teams at this point.
We build a 15,000 seat stadium with two on-site training facilities a la Carrington and Edgerton for both teams. They are available for the community each evening and for schools on schedule in the day.
We've no chance of staying at Moss Lane, we had issues getting locals on board for improved floodlights that reduced the light leak onto their houses. Does anyone honestly think they will stand for major stand builds on their doorstep?
To the out-of-town argument, York moved out of town and gained 1500 new fans...
15,000 seater stadium? No thanks. What's the point in the ground being less than 20% full? - having watched the United game, Newport's ground seems a good gauge and that's 7,500 (4,000 average attendance).
For me, the only solution which involved staying at Moss Lane would be gaining the allotment land somehow, turning the pitch and building two new home ends - a 2,000 all-seater main stand along Golf Road with the extra room we'd have, and a 2,000 capacity standing end on the allotment land - thus leaving two sides of the ground exactly how they are to keep short-term cost down.
But that would involve the council playing ball - and it certainly still wouldn't be cheap.
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That particular solution doesn't solve the problem of the water table being only a few inches below the surface.
As for ground sharing, County fans used to complain that they couldn't play our style of football because the pitch was being churned up by the rugby games. At the time the rugby club held all the aces.
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Agree with most on this thread. The issues go way beyond the pitch & more that we have a plan to deliver a ground that is fit for a side aspiring to the FL. Moss Lane was fine when for most of the last 30 years we were bumbling round the Unibond/CN getting anywhere between 650-1200 but in the new era it just doesn’t cut it. Whether it’s the inadequate number of toilets, the insufficient legroom & views in many parts of the main stand, the low quality PA system, the poor away facilties. We basically have a Conference play off team with a Conference North/NPL level ground. The board, of course, know all this.
I also agree with others that doing the necessary & staying at Moss Lane would be very difficult. The local NIMBY’s would make the whole process a nightmare. I’ve thought for a little while now that moving may be the best option. Problem is we play in the most expensive part of one of the most expensive cities in the U.K. so whilst I believe Trafford are sympathetic & open to discussion the options will be limited. The retail parks & around Broadheath always strike me as the likeliest possible avenue. Either way in the summer I think the Board need to illuminate us all on their current thinking on this & where we are.
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It's worth reading the history of how York's stadium came to fruition and it was an extremely painful and expensive journey getting there. They also had the advantage of building on the site of existing stadium along with all the added retail, cinema and community stuff. It's a focal point for the whole city and it's surrounds. There's no way the same could be applied in our case.
I genuinely don't see why we need to do anything mega drastic at our ground such as turning the pitch, buying allotments etc. A massive can of worms and not just in terms of money. The EFL minimums are achievable and it would be easier and cheaper surely for Trafford to support with upgrading what we have than try something completely new?
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There is a comprehensive message from Sam on the website
Good to read such a full explanation, also to hear that Dorking fans were looked after.
Anybody else intrigued by "However, we know we have some very big challenges ahead of us, and some potentially tough decisions to make" at the end? Is this a trailer for a ground move?
I'd say it's more a case of every pound we spend off the pitch is a pound less to spend on the team. The problem is that we've got a team which is getting better and better but a stadium that's woefully inadequate for this level and the crowds we now get. If we do manage to get promoted then it's an even more pressing issue. Things have come to a head on this and something has to give.
Credit to the club also for the quick and clear response.
Is it clear?
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There's been rumours for a long time about Long Hey, and building a training, lesuire facility and ground on there.
Alternative plenty of land towards Broadheath and Dunham that could be considered.
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The main asset of the club is indeed the players, equally as important, is the pitch. From reading the statement from the acting CEO I am of the opinion that moving Alty FC to another location isn’t an option, let’s hope the weather turns a bit dryer in the next 3 months. The whole country has been soaked in water for the last 6/7 months
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I dont think moving to Broadheath or Dunham would be an option. It's mostly National Trust Land.
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We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.
Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.
The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.
Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.
Do not disagree if a genuine cost / benefit analysis proves to be positive....otherwise, why should Community Tax payers support private sports clubs ?
Who said the Council fund it? They just need to show some willing to make it happen. They have been the core issue with every attempt that has been made by Sale to both stay (Heywood Road development) and to come back (Fletcher Moss Proposal being the most recent)
The idea behind it being a dual-team venue is how it can be funded... There are Billionaire owners at both teams at this point.
We build a 15,000 seat stadium with two on-site training facilities a la Carrington and Edgerton for both teams. They are available for the community each evening and for schools on schedule in the day.
We've no chance of staying at Moss Lane, we had issues getting locals on board for improved floodlights that reduced the light leak onto their houses. Does anyone honestly think they will stand for major stand builds on their doorstep?
To the out-of-town argument, York moved out of town and gained 1500 new fans...
Stadium that holds 15k is way more than likely needed......Morecambe, Accrington, Salford, Harrogate and Barrow all struggle to reach 3k in L2. In L1, Fleetwood, Port Vale and Burton struggle to get 4k.......Do enough improvements to keep ML safe and legal, improve facilities and worry about a new stadium if we looking like advancing to the Championship.
As for getting Trafford on-board, then no idea how we do this. I have complained about the pavements outside the old snooker centre pounding water and decomposed leaves, forcing pedestrians to step into the road on match days, only to be told it still meets their safety criteria.... ::).....when I reminded them that I was talking to the same TMBC who closed our ground due to some crumbly concrete on the terraces....they told me that money was in short supply and that they need to prioritise their spending across many competing issues.....if their dealings with the club are as helpful as their dealings with community tax payers, then we have no chance
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Maybe more of a possibility with the next Government when you'd like to think the trend in council funding might be reversed...?
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Maybe more of a possibility with the next Government when you'd like to think the trend in council funding might be reversed...?
Don’t hold your breath
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We need a bigger solution than just fixing the pitch.
Trafford Council should have been bending over backwards to bring Sale home, now is the time more than ever with a future football league club in the borough.
The new hybrid turfs that are at old Trafford, Wembley etc. can easily handle the rigours of rugby and football.
Time to get serious about a new home. It's already not going to happen overnight.
Do not disagree if a genuine cost / benefit analysis proves to be positive....otherwise, why should Community Tax payers support private sports clubs ?
Who said the Council fund it? They just need to show some willing to make it happen. They have been the core issue with every attempt that has been made by Sale to both stay (Heywood Road development) and to come back (Fletcher Moss Proposal being the most recent)
The idea behind it being a dual-team venue is how it can be funded... There are Billionaire owners at both teams at this point.
We build a 15,000 seat stadium with two on-site training facilities a la Carrington and Edgerton for both teams. They are available for the community each evening and for schools on schedule in the day.
We've no chance of staying at Moss Lane, we had issues getting locals on board for improved floodlights that reduced the light leak onto their houses. Does anyone honestly think they will stand for major stand builds on their doorstep?
To the out-of-town argument, York moved out of town and gained 1500 new fans...
Stadium that holds 15k is way more than likely needed......Morecambe, Accrington, Salford, Harrogate and Barrow all struggle to reach 3k in L2. In L1, Fleetwood, Port Vale and Burton struggle to get 4k.......Do enough improvements to keep ML safe and legal, improve facilities and worry about a new stadium if we looking like advancing to the Championship.
As for getting Trafford on-board, then no idea how we do this. I have complained about the pavements outside the old snooker centre pounding water and decomposed leaves, forcing pedestrians to step into the road on match days, only to be told it still meets their safety criteria.... ::).....when I reminded them that I was talking to the same TMBC who closed our ground due to some crumbly concrete on the terraces....they told me that money was in short supply and that they need to prioritise their spending across many competing issues.....if their dealings with the club are as helpful as their dealings with community tax payers, then we have no chance
Agreed 15k is far too much but with respect to all of the clubs listed above (with the exception of Port Vale) I’d argue we are a bigger club, better located then nearly all of them & with a higher ceiling. We’ve basically added 1000 to our average home gate in the last 3 years by dint of being a lower mid table conference team. Getting an average of 2,500 in the next few years should be achievable. 3k in the EFL with some large away supports factored in wouldn’t be that hard.
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The number might be a little large, but if you notice my suggestion is for a ground share as being part of why Trafford might get on board. While Sale is currently only getting 7k averages they will want to be able to hold more for big games and tbh if you moved them out of a Rugby League town we'd possibly see an increase in in their crowds.
Also, the move from National League to League 1 is short when the team is set up right. Wrexham and/or Notts will go up at the first attempt. Chesterfield will do the same next year, what's to say we won't as well if we go up? If the stars aligned we could be knocking on the championship before we even get past the plans stage.
End of the day though it's time to decide how serious the board is about actually being a league club. Moss Lane is a dinosaur of a ground with nowhere good to sit and watch the game, and very few decent places to stand either. We might be griping about the pitch but half the mainstand miss play in a quarter of the pitch (more if they sit close to the "windows", the standing home fans don't know from week to week where will be available to stand to them. Not to mention away fans and how much money we throw away because we can't host them for ale sales. We could test the water with planning permission for the away end, see it rejected then move on to more hospitable locations... or we can still be here in 10 years wondering why the pop side is only open to halfway because Trafford has found more decrepit bits, and we'll still be wondering why the f**k water comes from beneath us on a moss land.
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Didn't the board share their (approx) 10 year plan for redeveloping Moss Lane a couple of years back?
Where has this stuff about relocating come from? Are people putting 2+2 together and coming out with 15.0? :o :o
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I don't get why replacing stands on an existing football stadium that's been in place for over 100 years and is an increasingly important part of the community is going to have all this nimbyism and planning issues when the alternatives mentioned such as Dunham, Broadheath, Long Hey etc. are surely going to have many different oppositions and huge associated costs anyway?
If someone can point out a brownfield site within walking distance of the town centre which won't need new roads building or any residents to moan about the traffic or noise then please let me know.
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I think the relocation thing is partly down to the unplayable surface and partly down to the need to move in to to 21st century.
Recent trips to Kidderminster and Solihull show just how far behind the curve we are. Any expansion at Moss Lane would involve eliminating the parking area behind the pop side which in itself would bring new problems.
As far as ground sharing goes there used to be a requirement for premier rugby teams to have a 12,000 capacity. In the light of Worcester and Wasps going belly up I'm not sure that will still apply but certainly Sale would be looking at a venue that could hold 10 - 12K as a minimum.
I think if we had a better stand / stadium we would get bigger crowds. They're never going to be massive because of Old Trafford / Ethiad but no reason why we can't be looking at 5,000 - 6,000. 5000 in the current setup is not a good customer experience imho.
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The number might be a little large, but if you notice my suggestion is for a ground share as being part of why Trafford might get on board. While Sale is currently only getting 7k averages they will want to be able to hold more for big games and tbh if you moved them out of a Rugby League town we'd possibly see an increase in in their crowds.
Also, the move from National League to League 1 is short when the team is set up right. Wrexham and/or Notts will go up at the first attempt. Chesterfield will do the same next year, what's to say we won't as well if we go up? If the stars aligned we could be knocking on the championship before we even get past the plans stage.
End of the day though it's time to decide how serious the board is about actually being a league club. Moss Lane is a dinosaur of a ground with nowhere good to sit and watch the game, and very few decent places to stand either. We might be griping about the pitch but half the mainstand miss play in a quarter of the pitch (more if they sit close to the "windows", the standing home fans don't know from week to week where will be available to stand to them. Not to mention away fans and how much money we throw away because we can't host them for ale sales. We could test the water with planning permission for the away end, see it rejected then move on to more hospitable locations... or we can still be here in 10 years wondering why the pop side is only open to halfway because Trafford has found more decrepit bits, and we'll still be wondering why the f**k water comes from beneath us on a moss land.
Some good points. I guess there are many factors to consider in this new ground / refurb debate. Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.
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I'm sure the club is doing the due diligence and looking at renovating and a new ground. Interesting to see what the upshot will be.
In the meantime, the pitch either via warranty or paid for remedial work needs the drainage improving. It can be done, I remember when PSV had the drainage upgraded for the Olympic training venue. The grass pitch was always playable even in a monsoon. The ones next to it reminded us of the difference's as they swam in surface water.. Not sure how much it cost, but shows it can be done.
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Didn't the board share their (approx) 10 year plan for redeveloping Moss Lane a couple of years back?
Where has this stuff about relocating come from? Are people putting 2+2 together and coming out with 15.0? :o :o
Because they couldn't get a fan zone done from those plans.
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Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.
I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that, although we don't own the freehold, we do own the lease on the land. Is this not similar to owning a leasehold house or flat? i.e. You pay an annual ground rent to the freeholder (TMBC) but you can still freely sell the leasehold property for only slightly less than it would fetch as a freehold.
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Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.
I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that, although we don't own the freehold, we do own the lease on the land. Is this not similar to owning a leasehold house or flat? i.e. You pay an annual ground rent to the freeholder (TMBC) but you can still freely sell the leasehold property for only slightly less than it would fetch as a freehold.
There is a sporting covenant on it, so I think it renders the land nearly useless for resale.
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There is a sporting covenant on it, so I think it renders the land nearly useless for resale.
Ah - that's a bit of a bugger.
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Covenants can be removed if the beneficiaries are in agreement.
Not sure who the benefiting parties are in this case but I would have thought all the neighbours would be glad to get rid of the crowds and the floodlights.
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Perhaps an option could be to put the main stand where the pop side is now, then the moss lane. Side wouldn’t need such a high replacement stands compared with the present one.
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Big disadvantage we have is we do not own the land. Some clubs did and it financed their new home.
I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that, although we don't own the freehold, we do own the lease on the land. Is this not similar to owning a leasehold house or flat? i.e. You pay an annual ground rent to the freeholder (TMBC) but you can still freely sell the leasehold property for only slightly less than it would fetch as a freehold.
There is a sporting covenant on it, so I think it renders the land nearly useless for resale.
With dwellings I think you are correct.....leasehold properties change hands for market value and the new owner continues to pay the freeholder.
I would say with a football ground things are different. For example who wants to buy a lease along with a football ground to then continue to use it as a football ground...the number of potential buyers has to be severely limited.
The lease is not worthless though, because let us say TMBC wanted to sell the land to a property developer (yet more apartments and community tax to waste), then they would need to negotiate the purchase of the lease. I think this is what happened when the Chequers car park was sold for housing.
Sporting covenents these days seem to be no longer a cast in stone guarantee that the land can only be used for sport and more an inconvenient obstacle that the landowner can eventually overcome. I know of an athletics ground with a covenant that was sold for housing (despite local protest groups) and 'some' of the profits were used to help fund the building of a nearby leisure centre.
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Moving from Moss Lane would be the last option in my eyes.
I would have thought raising the pitch 1m/sorting drainage out would be a lot less expense than moving.