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[Hamilton]

The point I am making is that neither police or government accepted any blame or responsibility based on the Taylor report findings

They waited until the Hillsborough Independent Panel published it's findings in September 2012 before saying sorry. And still no police officer has faced any criminal conviction?

To answer your question, maybe this is the reason why it remains in the public consciousness more so than other tragedies?

I think that's definitely the case - we do hear about Hillsborough more than any other tragedy due to the circumstances.

What's interesting is that the act of remembrance is being used as a campaigning tool. What's so special about the 25th anniversary? Games weren't postponed by 7 minutes on the one year anniversary, or the ten year anniversary or the twenty year anniversary.

Hillsborough remembrances are no longer really about remembering the victims - they're part of a political campaign. This isn't to say anything about whether this campaign is justified (it probably is) but more of an observation about the use of remembrance as a way to promote an agenda.

Its the first significant anniversary since the reality of what happened at Hillsborough was acknowledged by the authorities and the highest institutions of the land. Its the first significant anniversary since the families of 96 people were allowed to finally complete their grieving process knowing that their loved ones were no longer held in suspicion of causing their own deaths.

I dont really get what your agenda is with Hillsborough. I think you're talking nonsense suggesting that its not about remembering the deaths of 96 people and honouring their lives. The Hillsborough remembrance movement (if you can call it that) is dedicated to the lives of its victims more than anything similar.

Just get to the ground late if its such an issue for you. When there's a minutes silence I doubt many people will stand there on the terraces and stands around the country and think about the political campaign. They'll think of the 96 people crushed to death in horrific circumstances at a football match through no fault of their own.

No one has ever blamed the people that died, even The Sun didn't go that far. The people who were blamed were the ones who allegedly got there late and were drunk - we now this not to be true, but it shouldn't really effect the grieving process.

My issue is that I think it's over sentimental and mawkish. The FA are also leaving 96 seats free at each semi-final and Liverpool aren't even playing!

What happened at Hillsborough was awful and Liverpool fans were not to blame. However, I don't think this gives you a blank cheque to insist upon ever increasing displays of public grief.

Delaying a game by seven minutes doesn't help remember those who died anymore than a single minute's silence. Grief is important but it's also important not to wallow in it.

Excellent post Jimmy.

[roytonmike]

The point I am making is that neither police or government accepted any blame or responsibility based on the Taylor report findings
They waited until the Hillsborough Independent Panel published it's findings in September 2012 before saying sorry. And still no police officer has faced any criminal conviction?
To answer your question, maybe this is the reason why it remains in the public consciousness more so than other tragedies?

I think that's definitely the case - we do hear about Hillsborough more than any other tragedy due to the circumstances.
What's interesting is that the act of remembrance is being used as a campaigning tool. What's so special about the 25th anniversary? Games weren't postponed by 7 minutes on the one year anniversary, or the ten year anniversary or the twenty year anniversary.
Hillsborough remembrances are no longer really about remembering the victims - they're part of a political campaign. This isn't to say anything about whether this campaign is justified (it probably is) but more of an observation about the use of remembrance as a way to promote an agenda.

Its the first significant anniversary since the reality of what happened at Hillsborough was acknowledged by the authorities and the highest institutions of the land. Its the first significant anniversary since the families of 96 people were allowed to finally complete their grieving process knowing that their loved ones were no longer held in suspicion of causing their own deaths.
I dont really get what your agenda is with Hillsborough. I think you're talking nonsense suggesting that its not about remembering the deaths of 96 people and honouring their lives. The Hillsborough remembrance movement (if you can call it that) is dedicated to the lives of its victims more than anything similar.
Just get to the ground late if its such an issue for you. When there's a minutes silence I doubt many people will stand there on the terraces and stands around the country and think about the political campaign. They'll think of the 96 people crushed to death in horrific circumstances at a football match through no fault of their own.

No one has ever blamed the people that died, even The Sun didn't go that far. The people who were blamed were the ones who allegedly got there late and were drunk - we know this not to be true, but it shouldn't really effect the grieving process.
My issue is that I think it's over-sentimental and mawkish. The FA are also leaving 96 seats free at each semi-final and Liverpool aren't even playing!
What happened at Hillsborough was awful and Liverpool fans were not to blame. However, I don't think this gives you a blank cheque to insist upon ever increasing displays of public grief.
Delaying a game by seven minutes doesn't help remember those who died any more than a single minute's silence. Grief is important but it's also important not to wallow in it.

Excellent post Jimmy.

Agreed - it sums up my own feelings on the subject far better than I could. 

[distancetraveller]

Excellent post Jimmy.

[York Alty]

It's only once the true facts (as the relatives see them) have come out, who did what, who didn't do what, that some people can begin to come to terms with grief.  It  gives a focus for their emotions, as opposed to a blank denial of responsibility from those who are responsible. 

Everybody is different, it's relatively easy to say "it's 25 years ago...you should be over this by now" from a distance, but when you're in the midst of that it is, I suspect, a very different position. Grieving the death of a family member or loved one has no timetable, no straight line recovery from the depths of despair to 'normal'. People aren't necessarily wallowing in grief, they be mentally stuck, traumatised, unable to progress with their lives. There is a member of my family extended family who has never recovered from the death of her husband in the very early 1970s, and never will. It's not wallowing in grief, it's an inability to recover.

[Paul Cain's Chip Pan]

So, out of interest, when Manchester United marked the 50th anniversary of the Munich air disaster by playing in retro kits and handing out free scarfs, were they wallowing in self pity or attempting to make some sort of political point?

My take on it is that 25 years is perceived as a milestone anniversary, hence the desire of Liverpool and the FA to mark the occasion in a different way from "normal". As a kid, I watched the events unfold on tv that day and I welcome any efforts to pay respect to the people who lost their lives in such a terrible way.

[Jimmy Hill]

It's only once the true facts (as the relatives see them) have come out, who did what, who didn't do what, that some people can begin to come to terms with grief.  It  gives a focus for their emotions, as opposed to a blank denial of responsibility from those who are responsible. 

Everybody is different, it's relatively easy to say "it's 25 years ago...you should be over this by now" from a distance, but when you're in the midst of that it is, I suspect, a very different position. Grieving the death of a family member or loved one has no timetable, no straight line recovery from the depths of despair to 'normal'. People aren't necessarily wallowing in grief, they be mentally stuck, traumatised, unable to progress with their lives. There is a member of my family extended family who has never recovered from the death of her husband in the very early 1970s, and never will. It's not wallowing in grief, it's an inability to recover.

I understand all that.

What I don't accept is that the grieving process is in anyway aided by Dartford kicking off their match seven minutes late. Or that it is helped by a match between Hull and Sheffield United having 96 empty seats.

[York Alty]

It's only once the true facts (as the relatives see them) have come out, who did what, who didn't do what, that some people can begin to come to terms with grief.  It  gives a focus for their emotions, as opposed to a blank denial of responsibility from those who are responsible. 

Everybody is different, it's relatively easy to say "it's 25 years ago...you should be over this by now" from a distance, but when you're in the midst of that it is, I suspect, a very different position. Grieving the death of a family member or loved one has no timetable, no straight line recovery from the depths of despair to 'normal'. People aren't necessarily wallowing in grief, they be mentally stuck, traumatised, unable to progress with their lives. There is a member of my family extended family who has never recovered from the death of her husband in the very early 1970s, and never will. It's not wallowing in grief, it's an inability to recover.

I understand all that.

What I don't accept is that the grieving process is in anyway aided by Dartford kicking off their match seven minutes late. Or that it is helped by a match between Hull and Sheffield United having 96 empty seats.

I don't think the grieving process is aided, it wouldn't do anything for me certainly. It is however an act of remembrance, in the same way laying poppies at a war memorial doesn't aid the grieving process for the vast majority of people, it may get folk to stop and ponder awhile the significance.

96 empty seats is a peculiar method of remembrance - rather dark in a way.

[Jimmy Hill]

It's only once the true facts (as the relatives see them) have come out, who did what, who didn't do what, that some people can begin to come to terms with grief.  It  gives a focus for their emotions, as opposed to a blank denial of responsibility from those who are responsible.  

Everybody is different, it's relatively easy to say "it's 25 years ago...you should be over this by now" from a distance, but when you're in the midst of that it is, I suspect, a very different position. Grieving the death of a family member or loved one has no timetable, no straight line recovery from the depths of despair to 'normal'. People aren't necessarily wallowing in grief, they be mentally stuck, traumatised, unable to progress with their lives. There is a member of my family extended family who has never recovered from the death of her husband in the very early 1970s, and never will. It's not wallowing in grief, it's an inability to recover.

I understand all that.

What I don't accept is that the grieving process is in anyway aided by Dartford kicking off their match seven minutes late. Or that it is helped by a match between Hull and Sheffield United having 96 empty seats.

I don't think the grieving process is aided, it wouldn't do anything for me certainly. It is however an act of remembrance, in the same way laying poppies at a war memorial doesn't aid the grieving process for the vast majority of people, it may get folk to stop and ponder awhile the significance.

96 empty seats is a peculiar method of remembrance - rather dark in a way.

Yes, it's an act of remembrance but remembrance shouldn't be of unlimited scope.

The fact you compare it to the sacrifice made by millions of men who died to protect our freedom is telling. An alien that visited earth would find it difficult to tell which was more important, WW1 or Hillsborough if they were only allowed to observe the remembrances.

Remembrance should be quantified by the strength of our felling not the scope of our reach. Whether the Hillsborough families realise it or not, the lasting legacy of the deaths of their loved ones is that it is very unlikely that such a tragedy will ever happen again.

Also, I'm not sure how someone who has the Hammer and Sickle as their avatar can have the gall to contribute to a thread about the death of innocent people.

[dopamine]

Communism as totalitarian reality is very different to communism as an ideal. The hammer and sickle (and communism) have therefore got a lot of negative connotations, so in a similar way to the swastika having at its root very positive values but having come to represent something monstrous, it is therefore advisable to avoid its use nowadays. I would be on York Alty's side though in saying that the fundamental principles of communism (egalitarianism, elimination of divisions at the root) are to be strived for. As to whether communism in its ideal form or even anything significantly better than totalitarianism is realistic as an attempt to get us there, that is a very different question.

[York Alty]

It's only once the true facts (as the relatives see them) have come out, who did what, who didn't do what, that some people can begin to come to terms with grief.  It  gives a focus for their emotions, as opposed to a blank denial of responsibility from those who are responsible.  

Everybody is different, it's relatively easy to say "it's 25 years ago...you should be over this by now" from a distance, but when you're in the midst of that it is, I suspect, a very different position. Grieving the death of a family member or loved one has no timetable, no straight line recovery from the depths of despair to 'normal'. People aren't necessarily wallowing in grief, they be mentally stuck, traumatised, unable to progress with their lives. There is a member of my family extended family who has never recovered from the death of her husband in the very early 1970s, and never will. It's not wallowing in grief, it's an inability to recover.

I understand all that.

What I don't accept is that the grieving process is in anyway aided by Dartford kicking off their match seven minutes late. Or that it is helped by a match between Hull and Sheffield United having 96 empty seats.

I don't think the grieving process is aided, it wouldn't do anything for me certainly. It is however an act of remembrance, in the same way laying poppies at a war memorial doesn't aid the grieving process for the vast majority of people, it may get folk to stop and ponder awhile the significance.

96 empty seats is a peculiar method of remembrance - rather dark in a way.

Yes, it's an act of remembrance but remembrance shouldn't be of unlimited scope.

The fact you compare it to the sacrifice made by millions of men who died to protect our freedom is telling. An alien that visited earth would find it difficult to tell which was more important, WW1 or Hillsborough if they were only allowed to observe the remembrances.

Remembrance should be quantified by the strength of our felling not the scope of our reach. Whether the Hillsborough families realise it or not, the lasting legacy of the deaths of their loved ones is that it is very unlikely that such a tragedy will ever happen again.

Also, I'm not sure how someone who has the Hammer and Sickle as their avatar can have the gall to contribute to a thread about the death of innocent people.

You may have also noticed I change the picture on an irregular basis.  I see it as a picture, no more than that.  There was a big Cheshire Cheese on there some time ago - even though my favourite cheese is Cheddar.

[Jimmy]

Alty home to ferriby v alty we keep playing ok the game may decide second place

[Hamilton]

It's only once the true facts (as the relatives see them) have come out, who did what, who didn't do what, that some people can begin to come to terms with grief.  It  gives a focus for their emotions, as opposed to a blank denial of responsibility from those who are responsible.  

Everybody is different, it's relatively easy to say "it's 25 years ago...you should be over this by now" from a distance, but when you're in the midst of that it is, I suspect, a very different position. Grieving the death of a family member or loved one has no timetable, no straight line recovery from the depths of despair to 'normal'. People aren't necessarily wallowing in grief, they be mentally stuck, traumatised, unable to progress with their lives. There is a member of my family extended family who has never recovered from the death of her husband in the very early 1970s, and never will. It's not wallowing in grief, it's an inability to recover.

I understand all that.

What I don't accept is that the grieving process is in anyway aided by Dartford kicking off their match seven minutes late. Or that it is helped by a match between Hull and Sheffield United having 96 empty seats.

I don't think the grieving process is aided, it wouldn't do anything for me certainly. It is however an act of remembrance, in the same way laying poppies at a war memorial doesn't aid the grieving process for the vast majority of people, it may get folk to stop and ponder awhile the significance.

96 empty seats is a peculiar method of remembrance - rather dark in a way.

Yes, it's an act of remembrance but remembrance shouldn't be of unlimited scope.

The fact you compare it to the sacrifice made by millions of men who died to protect our freedom is telling. An alien that visited earth would find it difficult to tell which was more important, WW1 or Hillsborough if they were only allowed to observe the remembrances.

Remembrance should be quantified by the strength of our felling not the scope of our reach. Whether the Hillsborough families realise it or not, the lasting legacy of the deaths of their loved ones is that it is very unlikely that such a tragedy will ever happen again.

Also, I'm not sure how someone who has the Hammer and Sickle as their avatar can have the gall to contribute to a thread about the death of innocent people.

You may have also noticed I change the picture on an irregular basis.  I see it as a picture, no more than that.  There was a big Cheshire Cheese on there some time ago - even though my favourite cheese is Cheddar.

You rebel!

[York Alty]

http://www.cheese.com/little-black-bomber/ is ridiculously nice. A truckle of cheese heaven.

I once had the honour, the absolute pleasure, of eating Gubbeen (http://www.gubbeen.com/gubbeen-cheese-dairy.html) from County Cork. For flips sake...g o r g e o u s.

Oh well, the finances tell me to carry on eating Dairylea...